Has Gretsch been lying to us for over a decade?

[BAG]

Hey all. Just tossing this in here so hopefully no one has to try going through Sweetwater for this (don't shoot the messenger etc.):

I reached out to our merchandising team to reach out to Gretsch for official clarification. The going theory around these parts is that Gretsch most likely did not intend to mislead anyone. More likely, it was a misunderstanding in function over form - they certainly look like mini humbuckers, but clearly are not. It is such a low priced instrument that it is no surprise to me or anyone else that it has gone this long without significant issue/testing from the consumer market.

Again, I do not believe anyone is intentionally misleading customers to invest in a low cost bass with hum-canceling pickups. The cost difference in making humbuckers vs. single coils at the manufacturing level is so insignificant that it wouldn't make sense to mislead customers for something so minor. You all should see the inventory notes we have for certain products full of clarifications from manufacturers (looking at you, Rickenbacker...)

Hey! I love Sweetwater, excellent customer service. So what is the resolution on this? Will Gretsch/Fender make good on their warranty? Will they replace the pickups of those of us who bought their product with faulty manufactISSUE?

Did you see the nightmare gaslighting their customer service team ran me through 2 years ago around this EXACT issue?

PunkPatriot.com: Gretsch Electromatic G2220 Jet Junior Bass II Review

I'm sorry, but I don't think misrepresentation by the manufacturer (and by extension, all retailers) is a warranty issue. Nothing failed, right? If the noise was an issue at purchase (which it would have been), it should've been returned as defective/replaced with an alternative product. I don't understand the looming cash cow vibe I'm getting in general here (lawsuits? for a $300 bass?)

I disagree.
@Asher Platts found that his bass, which was and still is, advertised as having two mini-humbucker pickups, in actual fact had two single coil pickups.
This could well have been a manufacturing error and therefore he was well within his rights to ask that they be replaced with the correct pickups or a replacement, correctly built, instrument be provided. Neither thing happened and he was given the runaround for months until legal threats got him his money back.
His initial contact with Fender/Gretsch was nearly a year ago and they still have not rectified the advertised specs or installed the advertised pickups, as confirmed by many on this thread that have bought the same bass in the last year. They have had ample opportunity to change their advertised specs but have failed to do so.

We know from this thread that at least one 2202 single pickup version of the bass has a mini humbucker installed. When Fender/Gretsch brought out the 2220 with two advertised mini humbuckers, which outwardly look exactly like the actual humbucker pickup on the 2202, it would be fair to assume that it would have two of those very same (or very similar) pickups. As we have seen, that is not the case.

Anybody who purchased these basses is well within their rights to ask that the error in the build of their bass be rectified under warranty. Maybe if enough people do this Fender/Gretsch will eventually correct their advertised specs. I highly doubt that they will actually build the basses as advertised having read how they dealt with Asher Platts.

 

[12BitSlab]

1) I am not an attorney.
2) I have no legal training whatsoever.
3) I have never owned a Grestch product.
4) I have never played a G-2220.
5) I had never heard of a G-2220 until this thread popped up.

A) I feel sorry for anyone who purchases something and doesn’t get what they pay for.
B) Some companies are crooked. Some are merely incompetent. Others are honest and do their best to keep customers happy.
C) I would never discount anyone’s feelings about being ripped off by any purchase.
D) I sincerely appreciate @LowEndLobster ‘s efforts to educate everyone.

But……..

When it comes to legal action, be it civil or criminal, I think that those who administer justice take into account damage(s) incurred. It is my guess (remember that I am not an attorney) that an uninterested, impartial third party might ask the following:

1) Have you ever been terminated from a musical engagement because of the sound of your bass guitar?
2) Have you ever been denied performing for an individual “gig” or denied performing with a band because of the sound of your bass guitar?
3) Have you ever suffered public ridicule ranging anywhere from a minor distraction to world wide news because of the sound of your bass guitar?
4) Have you ever actively tried to sell your bass guitar, received only offers that were less than a market rate, and you were told that the offers proffered were because of the factory installed pickups?
5) Have you ever posted any message whether public or private on any form of social media praising your bass guitar?
6) Have you ever had a conversation with anyone praising your bass guitar?

My guess is that the overwhelming majority of G-2202 owners can not show any sort of damages beyond hurt feelings.

No damages = No payout. I can’t imagine any attorney wanting to take such a case unless legal fees are charged based on hours and expenses.

 

[Deleted member 132197]

@LowEndLobster, you're famous now:

 

[Rui Lima]

I still think it's too much noise for too little. A little hysteria.

At this bass level, the cost difference between making single coils and dual coils is pennies. It is not to be believed that the company did this on purpose.

So all this noise will only make whoever bought the bass (injured) be even more injured in the future when they want to sell it.

 

[J_Bass]

I still think it's too much noise for too little. A little hysteria.

At this bass level, the cost difference between making single coils and dual coils is pennies. It is not to be believed that the company did this on purpose.

So all this noise will only make whoever bought the bass (injured) be even more injured in the future when they want to sell it.

Really?!
Has Gretsch been lying to us for over a decade?

PunkPatriot.com: Gretsch Electromatic G2220 Jet Junior Bass II Review

 

[Rui Lima]

Yes, it's a lie.

Yes, the company's behavior is disgusting.

But yes, the cost difference of making this type of generic pickup in single coil or humbucker mode is ridiculous. So what's the intention?

But yes buyers will be more harmed in reselling than buying after all the noise.

It's just the realization of that fact. But I understand and respect the noise.

 

[LowEndLobster]

@LowEndLobster, you're famous now:

Wow! That was great! Thank you for sharing, this made my morning. What a fun duo!

 

[sleddogn]

1)
1) Have you ever been terminated from a musical engagement because of the sound of your bass guitar?
2) Have you ever been denied performing for an individual “gig” or denied performing with a band because of the sound of your bass guitar?

I've seen quite a few posts here at TB about band leaders not liking a particular sound. Not whats going on here, but it does happen apparently...lol

 

[melloncollie]

I think this wouldn’t nearly as big of a deal if the bass used more conventionally shaped/sized pickups. Then it would be much easier to replace them if you wanted (not that anybody should have to do that). As it stands now the only reputable brand that makes something close to the same form factor is tv Jones, which is pretty expensive.

 

[Old_Noob]

I reached out to our merchandising team to reach out to Gretsch for official clarification. The going theory around these parts is that Gretsch most likely did not intend to mislead anyone. More likely, it was a misunderstanding in function over form - they certainly look like mini humbuckers, but clearly are not.

I don't understand this. What is there to misunderstand? Did Gretsch spec them with humbuckers and the supplier didn't provide them? Or were they spec'd with single and someone in marketing said "looks like a humbucker to me."?

 

[Drucifer]

I've read all 46 pages of comments, and wanted to add my thoughts. It really is a small thing, but it's also a big thing, to have a product incorrectly described. Imagine if their specifications said the Junior Jet had a 32" scale and someone measured it and it was actually 30". Doesn't seem likely, does it? But that's what they're doing with the pickups. Subway described their sandwiches as foot-long, got called out when they came up short, and changed, without a sandwich recall or rebate or whatever. I think @LowEndLobster did a service in identifying the issue for everyone, albeit in a somewhat inflammatory style (arguable), but that's social media today.

 

[Johnny Alien]

The problem with everyone talking about taking this to a lawyer is there is not quantifiable damage. Take the crazy extreme baby food situation that was put forth earlier. There is a visible and demonstrable damage for the end user. The baby has died. In this case someone would have to prove that the fact that the pickup was not as advertised that something negative happened. Did you lose a gig because of the noise? Did your wife leave you? Did you lose a job? The bottom line is there is no real damages other than people being upset. You bought the bass, you enjoyed the bass, you praised the bass on TB so its hard to prove that there was anything that had damaging effects on you. This is exactly why I think people are WAY over-reacting about this.

People can't even easily or reasonably prove that the single coils results in a loss in value. There is no proof that a single coil bass is cheaper or less desirable. Most people care if a bass plays or sounds good. If I had this bass and loved it my reaction would be "well whatever they put in it sounds great".

I disagree.
@Asher Platts found that his bass, which was and still is, advertised as having two mini-humbucker pickups, in actual fact had two single coil pickups.

I would need to know more about this story to know what was known, what was passed on to FMIC, etc. Did they explore a noise issue and leave it at that or did someone dissect the pickup like we did here? Not saying there is anything false in the story I am just saying we don't know enough yet to point to that.

 

[Old_Noob]

The problem with everyone talking about taking this to a lawyer is there is not quantifiable damage. . . .

People can't even easily or reasonably prove that the single coils results in a loss in value. There is no proof that a single coil bass is cheaper or less desirable. Most people care if a bass plays or sounds good. If I had this bass and loved it my reaction would be "well whatever they put in it sounds great".

Thats why some states have consumer protection laws that set damages at x times product value and/or include provisions for recovery of attorney fees.

 

[gln1955]

The problem with everyone talking about taking this to a lawyer is there is not quantifiable damage. Take the crazy extreme baby food situation that was put forth earlier. There is a visible and demonstrable damage for the end user. The baby has died. In this case someone would have to prove that the fact that the pickup was not as advertised that something negative happened. Did you lose a gig because of the noise? Did your wife leave you? Did you lose a job? The bottom line is there is no real damages other than people being upset. You bought the bass, you enjoyed the bass, you praised the bass on TB so its hard to prove that there was anything that had damaging effects on you. This is exactly why I think people are WAY over-reacting about this.

People can't even easily or reasonably prove that the single coils results in a loss in value. There is no proof that a single coil bass is cheaper or less desirable. Most people care if a bass plays or sounds good. If I had this bass and loved it my reaction would be "well whatever they put in it sounds great".



I would need to know more about this story to know what was known, what was passed on to FMIC, etc. Did they explore a noise issue and leave it at that or did someone dissect the pickup like we did here? Not saying there is anything false in the story I am just saying we don't know enough yet to point to that.

Years ago I got a small check from Apple following a class action suit involving iPhone batteries that were not up to spec. The only damage was that owners of those phones had to charge them more frequently than they should have. That doesn't sound any more onerous than having a noisy bass to deal with. The point is, doesn't have to be a serious life-changing damage for a lawsuit to be effective.

That said, this isn't something that seems at all likely to be pursued that way.

 

[Haans]

I doubt anyone would try their luck at suing for damages. I don't think anyone in this thread has advocated for that either. However, a case could be made for making FMIC do good by their customers by either offering (partial) refunds or offering to replace the pickups with humbuckers as advertised. It's very unlikely that they will offer anything voluntarily, so a threat of legal pursuit may be the only way. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that even a lawsuit will end in favour of the customers. The difference between what was advertised and what was delivered may simply be deemed insignificant.

Still, the fact that they've known and done nothing won't be in their favour.

 

[steimlem]

i don't get why people think there needs to be damage to a human for Fender to fix this? Nintendo Switch had an issue where their Joycons can start to drift after a period of time. After people made a deal about the issue publicly, now they will replace or fix the Joycons absolutely free of charge if you send them in, even outside of warranty. These Joycons never injured anyone or caused someone financial distress.

It's completely comparable and fair to want Fender to replace/fix "humbuckers" that are not humbucking.

 

[LowEndLobster]

i don't get why people think there needs to be damage to a human for Fender to fix this? Nintendo Switch had an issue where their Joycons can start to drift after a period of time. After people made a deal about the issue publicly, now they will replace or fix the Joycons absolutely free of charge if you send them in, even outside of warranty. These Joycons never injured anyone or caused someone financial distress.

It's completely comparable and fair to want Fender to replace/fix "humbuckers" that are not humbucking.

Great comment. I agree. This isn't about egregious damages suffered by customers, this is about making things right with your customers. Nobody's died or gotten injured over this (though I did almost cut my thumb opening up the pickup heheh), but that doesn't mean that there's not an issue here nor does it mean it shouldn't be resolved because it's not a 'big deal'. Consumer protection laws exist for a reason, and it's within our rights as customers to receive what's advertised and to leverage those laws when we do not. The price tier of the instrument or perceived quality doesn't matter here. Your Joycon example is wonderful, and thank you for bringing it up. Joycons are like $80 USD, yet there was an issue that was identified by consumers, reported on, and rectified appropriately. It's not unreasonable to expect Fender/Gretsch to do the same. Whether or not it will happen is another story entirely, but I don't believe we are acting entitled or are in the wrong for expecting trusted brands like Gretsch/Fender to deliver an instrument as advertised... regardless of price.

 

[travatron4000]

Really I think they should just admit there was "a manufacturing error" or some BS. It seems they have actual humbuckers that fit available. Offer to replace the pups in any affected instrument but you have to fill out the form and package it per their instructions and then drop it off to get shipped to them and get repaired. Then then can expect only a small percentage of people to actually go though the hassle and minimize their finical impact but at the same time "make it right"

 

[LowEndLobster]

Really I think they should just admit there was "a manufacturing error" or some BS. It seems they have actual humbuckers that fit available. Offer to replace the pups in any affected instrument but you have to fill out the form and package it per their instructions and then drop it off to get shipped to them and get repaired. Then then can expect only a small percentage of people to actually go though the hassle and minimize their finical impact but at the same time "make it right"

I agree, this would be the ideal solution. Reach out to your customers, let them know you are aware of the issue, and take steps to rectify it for those who want it rectified.

 

[wango55]

Meanwhile, Adidas is apparently being sued in FLA for calling the hockey jerseys they sell as "authentic" when they aren't the exact same model used by the NHL. To me, this is a comparable situation, no? No one is getting "hurt" but the advertising is misleading.