have the D's toppled the SVT's?

[socialleper]

There has never been more rock bands, especially heavy/extreme rock which tends to gravitate to big head gear with colored sound, with more income streams available to them, than today.

Rock & metal are hotter than ever.

Its hard to know if there are "more of them" because we didn't have social media to tell us how many there were in the 80s. Also, statistically speaking, there are more people today than there was in the 80s and 90s when metal was very popular, so its almost unavoidable that there would be. However, this statement means little unless you balance it as a ratio vs the current population.
Logic.
"Hotter" is relative. The underground scene is pretty big, but mainstream visibility is in the toilet. Younger audiences like my teen age kids think metal is for "old people." Real instruments sound dated to them. The metal category of the Grammys doesn't even get air time anymore.
Gatekeeper @$$ hats that trash any band that makes money (Slipknot, Mastodon, Ghost, etc) don't help. They steer the overall scene away from accessibility (which equals money) into weird little niches.
Rock\Metal also broke and there is no pot of gold at the end of the "hard work" rainbow anymore. Why do you think so many people are quitting mid-level touring bands. There's no money. No money, no future. People are motivated by profits. I can't tell you how many classic metal bands have made statements saying how it is nearly impossible for young bands to make a living at music any more.

I appreciate your enthusiasm. You're wearing rose tinted glasses though.

 

[nostatic]

My son is 19. He listens to a mix of techno/edm (mostly game music) and stuff like Steely Dan, Earth Wind & Fire, Chicago, Alan Parsons (in other words, dad's influence). The only time he notices metal is if it is used as a sounder for a youtube video (like hydraulic press channel). Anecdotal data to be sure, but one data point.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Weight seems to be on people's minds, but I have to agree that his is a real factor. A brand new SVT-CL is $1800 on MF. Just about all of the most powerful class D heads are under a grand. That's a chunk of change.
The used market for SVT and other tube heads is pretty hot, but you really don't know what you are buying until you inspect it. A 30 year old head can have a lot of iffy stuff going on. Tubes vary greatly in quality, and shipping them in a head is a massive pain (if you are buying off Ebay or Reverb.)
I stand behind my statement, and I think the prevailing opinion, that of course SVTs and their brethren will be around for a while, but the low level working stiff will not be the target market. This gear will be for the big boys only.
However, the greatest threat as I see it, is as the market for rock bands fade due to consumer preference and lack of economic viability, there will be fewer and fewer of these big boys to buy these amps new.

I know I'm beating a dead horse but the V4B is $1200 new regularly $800 used. 40lbs and 100 tube watts is plenty loud for most gigs. It for me is the perfect compromise.

@nostatic i love Monique and she is more glorious when run through the power section of the V4B. She's 90% of the way there with the M700, I just can't ignore that extra 10%

 

[chadds]

Yes! I thought the story was hype but the full complement of 6SL7s in the Monique bring a near power tube tone. Don't believe me try it. The full voltage applied to the 12ax7 in the Summit TD-100 showed me there was more possible than the usual 12ax7 fitted pre in hybrids of the time. The Monique is big. I played all the classics when they were just new amps. The Monique does all of them if you tweak to taste. I use a high end Class D and it's an match made in heaven. Yes I love tubes. For me the Class D gives me the FOH sound reinforcement on stage while the Monique does the real character.

I've been playing since 9th grade. Lot of Bassman & Showman. Heard a B-15 and said, "Oh! Bass!"

It's great when you find your thing. Sometimes that's playing through all kinds of beliefs that get in the way of the ears.

 

[sharkbait130]

For practice and rehearsals I almost always go with S.S. but if I'm playing a gig , the SVT and 8 10 are always behind me.

 

[The Bass Clef]

I know I'm beating a dead horse but the V4B is $1200 new regularly $800 used. 40lbs and 100 tube watts is plenty loud for most gigs. It for me is the perfect compromise.

Me too. The V4B really is the perfect compromise at about half the weight of an SVT (plus I have a roller case with a luggage handle so transporting is easy). In a mix, I can truly say I like the tone as much as an old SVT, and honestly since I've gotten used to mine, I think I like it even more! I've used it on outdoor stages with no PA support, with 2 SVT210AV cabs, and walked out into the crowd with my wireless and was surpised how well the bass carried. Best bang for the buck amp out there IMO.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

You don't have to have power tubes and big iron to get the touch sensitivity. A good compressor will get you some of it, and a proper full-tube preamp (e.g. Monique) will as well. I think the power tube "sag" is far more important to guitar players than to bass players. In part that is due to the wider dynamic range and frequencies that guitar occupy. Fairly rare to have the bass tone up front and exposed, so "working" the instrument is less of a requirement. It still is appreciated by some (myself included), but the relative importance is up to the user and their needs.

The reality is that every element in the chain has some impact on the sound and feel of the instrument. Most of all, the player has their perception and biases, and those will probably have the biggest impact. If you think the amp has interactive touch sensitivity, it likely will.

I know there's a lot to everything you're saying. I've tried compressors like the Diamond and the FMR RNC but the only ones that have ever really done it for me like a tube amp does have been large and expensive studio boxes like the Manley and the UA 1176.

Honestly I don't really notice that touch sensitivity as much with the big tube amps we're talking about here either. Past a certain volume the subtleties seem to fall subject to my inability to perceive them. Playing them at low volume that natural compression seems much less pronounced. Where I really appreciate it is with the 60w Alessandro head I've been using lately. I'm utterly devoted to that little amp because it gives me that saturation and smooth compression I can control with my hands with just four knobs and no effort. Kind of a one trick pony maybe but damn what an awesome trick! If I could get a small sub $500 comp in front of an 800w class D to do what it does I'd be ecstatic.

I'm realizing that to get what I want playing bass through a tube amp I need be running it kinda hard. Which means I need the small one for about 70% of the work I do and a bigger one (right now a '78 Fender Studio Bass head) for where 60 watts can't go. I'm not in love with the Fender though and maybe a comp I actually like in front of a big class D amp would do it for me playing louder...I'm curious about the FMR PBC-6A. I'm also gonna break out my 1st gen EBS Valve Drive again. You've definitely put a bug in my ear to explore that now that I have the Alessandro as a benchmark. I wish I knew someone with a Monique....

 

[Korladis]

I had exactly the same experience back when I had an 800RB as a backup for my D-180. Even when I was playing guitar and lending my bass rig to a bandmate too lazy to get his own amp, he'd schlep the D-180 to shows over the GK. +1 lazy guy vote for tubes I guess.


I've switched around between MTI SVT, D-180, PF500, and Bass Terror with the same cabs and instruments. They all had their ups and downs (D-180 sounded good but couldn't handle low B at loud volumes, PF500 got the job done but sounded bland without effects, BT was a total one trick pony but sounded better than the PF when you were doing that one trick, SVT was the only one that could throw a tight low B with authority and sound good doing it).

The micros were also great for letting me take the bus to practice with all my gear. Used both for shows when the SVT was in the shop, they were fine but the weight was irrelevant once we were carting a full drum kit, two half stacks, and two 1x15s.

EDITED: was not expecting to see Ulcerate in this thread. Ha!

I actually tune to BEAD, and use my D-180 pretty much exclusively. Handles the B just fine and sounds massive doing it. Of course, it doesn't do it clean, but fortunately, clean isn't something I care about with the bands I tune low for. Cabinet might also have something to do with it, since it's a Sunn 2x15 with Faital neo drivers. Then if I kick on the fuzz for even more overdrive, it's like a wall slamming into you. That was the effect I missed with the GK.

We're talking about two totally different types of touring musicians. I'm not saying your session/theater-playing bassists don't exist! But there's a whole separate constellation of bands (part-time, full-time, etc.) and shows that have nothing to do with that. The touring bassists I'm talking about are definitely not doing backing gigs and orchestra work between tours, and they're also not using micro rigs, IEMs, amp sims, or anything like that.

Anyhow. All I was saying was that people keep generalizing about what professional or touring musicians do based on their experience with the type of players you're talking about BUT there are tons of musicians who don't fit that mold at all.

Yeah. People generally hang out in their own circles of musicians, so what Jeff thinks is typical might be practically unheard of for me and vice versa.

There has never been more rock bands, especially heavy/extreme rock which tends to gravitate to big head gear with colored sound, with more income streams available to them, than today.

Rock & metal are hotter than ever.

It's a great time to be a music listener, even though it's a rough time to be a band.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Reading this post and others paints a dark picture for live music. I'm sad. Internet killed the Radio Star.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Reading this post and others paints a dark picture for live music. I'm sad. Internet killed the Radio Star.

There have been times when it's been easier to make a living playing music but honestly most of that work was soul sucking bull****. I can remember doing a cruise ship gig in my late twenties and for the first time questioning whether or not I really wanted to be a professional musician. But even back then for most of us there wasn't much of a living in following your heart playing original music. I always liked the line "they're an overnight sensation....yeah and it only took a decade of touring 250 days a year in a 20 year old econoline." Hell, a lot of bands never even got the momentum to do that.

 

[chris_b]

D class v lead sled? Different tools for different jobs. Sports cars will never make tractors redundant and vice versa.

Same with amps. D class will mean you'll see fewer SVT type amps being used by weekend warriors but they'll never disappear from big stages. One small change that is happening, Aguilar's DB amp seems to be making inroads into the SVT territory.

 

[One Drop]

People seem to have forgotten that 10 years ago large tube amps really did seem to be on their way out.

Since then there has been a huge resurgence in interest in big tube amps, and many of the large established companies have come out with 100, 150, 200, and 300 watt heads, there are a load of small boutique companies building and selling their low power amps, and even some of the large companies have reintroduced taty low powered all tube amps for stage and studio.

This coincided with the return in hipness and popularity with classic passive bass designs, as well.

The days of all tube amps being the most common in studios and stages is truly long one, but the niche for them is a large one with a few different types of bassists still seeking them out and using them, solely or in combination with other rigs, it's horses for courses and always will be.

So I take most of the extreme positions here with a grain of salt.

 

[Agosix]

Yes! I thought the story was hype but the full complement of 6SL7s in the Monique bring a near power tube tone. Don't believe me try it. The full voltage applied to the 12ax7 in the Summit TD-100 showed me there was more possible than the usual 12ax7 fitted pre in hybrids of the time. The Monique is big. I played all the classics when they were just new amps. The Monique does all of them if you tweak to taste. I use a high end Class D and it's an match made in heaven. Yes I love tubes. For me the Class D gives me the FOH sound reinforcement on stage while the Monique does the real character.

I've been playing since 9th grade. Lot of Bassman & Showman. Heard a B-15 and said, "Oh! Bass!"

It's great when you find your thing. Sometimes that's playing through all kinds of beliefs that get in the way of the ears.

What do you use for 6sl7 in the Monique.

 

[nostatic]

I know there's a lot to everything you're saying. I've tried compressors like the Diamond and the FMR RNC but the only ones that have ever really done it for me like a tube amp does have been large and expensive studio boxes like the Manley and the UA 1176.

Honestly I don't really notice that touch sensitivity as much with the big tube amps we're talking about here either. Past a certain volume the subtleties seem to fall subject to my inability to perceive them. Playing them at low volume that natural compression seems much less pronounced. Where I really appreciate it is with the 60w Alessandro head I've been using lately. I'm utterly devoted to that little amp because it gives me that saturation and smooth compression I can control with my hands with just four knobs and no effort. Kind of a one trick pony maybe but damn what an awesome trick! If I could get a small sub $500 comp in front of an 800w class D to do what it does I'd be ecstatic.

I'm realizing that to get what I want playing bass through a tube amp I need be running it kinda hard. Which means I need the small one for about 70% of the work I do and a bigger one (right now a '78 Fender Studio Bass head) for where 60 watts can't go. I'm not in love with the Fender though and maybe a comp I actually like in front of a big class D amp would do it for me playing louder...I'm curious about the FMR PBC-6A. I'm also gonna break out my 1st gen EBS Valve Drive again. You've definitely put a bug in my ear to explore that now that I have the Alessandro as a benchmark. I wish I knew someone with a Monique....

Some years back I asked Jule to build a low-power tube power amp to mate with Monique. He made one with a pair of EL-34s (my request - I had a Bogner Shiva that I loved for guitar and always preferred EL-34s to 6L6s). It sounded great and was very "chewy" to play. But it could barely cover a jazz gig volume-wise. And still weighed like 30 lbs or so.

The problem with bass vs guitar is that if you're pushing the power section hard, you don't have anywhere to go. And in live situations, often you *have* to have somewhere to go. Headroom usually is a necessity, and that's the exact opposite of pushing into compression. So we're kinda stuck. That's why it works well in more controlled situations (studio or bedroom), less so in the wild.

I love tube amps. But it certainly isn't practical for my needs. And I still maintain the popularity today of the SVT is to a significant degree based on a combination of looks and nostalgia. And there is *nothing* wrong with that. Part of the gig...

 

[alaskaleftybass]

The days of youth when I traveled with my trusty SVT/810... packing up the morning after when you're barely awake... enough money for the laundry and gas to the next town.... i will always treasure those memories. Back then there was no question about owning that stack. It just belonged. Just like our guitarist's Marshall half-stack. I used to love looking at stages with an SVT double stack and a Marshall double stack. Seems like the kids are anti-everything and that would be too uniform for them.. but I loved it. Heck I almost want to pick one up for a local club I play at and just leave it there!

 

[Jeff Scott]

There have been times when it's been easier to make a living playing music but honestly most of that work was soul sucking bull****. I can remember doing a cruise ship gig in my late twenties and for the first time questioning whether or not I really wanted to be a professional musician.

I was very much into progressive rock and jazz fusion when I started I playing in a couple of Top 40/Disco bands in the late 1970s (the first one was a band I created). I wondered whether I was "prostituting" myself to play that kind of music, but you know what? I had a blast in those bands; the audiences were great and really got into what we were doing, the places were packed, the bars were making tons of money on drinks, basically it was all good. Given the chance, I'd it again, really.

Did I mention the girls.......................

 

[chadds]

What do you use for 6sl7 in the Monique.

Shuguang. I tried NOS JAN RCAs. In the studio just playing easily they sounded excellent. The Shuguangs are clearer, punchier and give wide frequency response. Jule required an available tube so bassists could have consistent sound if/when needing to replace on tour or studio. Again way punchier. Same sound loud or soft. So they win out! This is an example where facts beat out ideas.

 

[Agosix]

Shuguang. I tried NOS JAN RCAs. In the studio just playing easily they sounded excellent. The Shuguangs are clearer, punchier and give wide frequency response. Jule required an available tube so bassists could have consistent sound if/when needing to replace on tour or studio. Again way punchier. Same sound loud or soft. So they win out! This is an example where facts beat out ideas.

Agree, I had changed to a tung sol and it wasn't the same. Put the shguang back in and way better tone around so it stays in.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

I don't see Class D making good All Tube bass amps obsolete. I haven't owned an all tube bass amp in better than a decade, but I will one day buy another. IMO an all tube bass amp offers a tone and feel that hasn't yet been duplicated by other technologies.

I do see Class D technology has already affected the availability of new Lead Sled stereo power amps.

I use a lead sled solid state stereo power amp with a tube preamp as my total overkill setup. I have 3 different pairs of 8ohm bass cabs to choose from. Everything I own I can lift by myself, and I also use a hand truck that converts into a dolly. For me, the slight workout to transport it is worth it when I power it up.

And I own a Class D micro head that I use to power my pair of 1-12" cabinets.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

I know I'm beating a dead horse but the V4B is $1200 new regularly $800 used. 40lbs and 100 tube watts is plenty loud for most gigs. It for me is the perfect compromise.

@nostatic i love Monique and she is more glorious when run through the power section of the V4B. She's 90% of the way there with the M700, I just can't ignore that extra 10%

I've only heard the great reviews from people who've tried and own the Jule Monique, I can only imagine how much even more fantastic it would be to use an all tube power section along with it.