For me it's ALL about the head....that interactive touch sensitive feel you get with power tubes and big iron transformers.
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have the D's toppled the SVT's?
- Thread starter MJ_Sotti
- Start date
Yeah, that's what all tube haters say
I've had many occasions to test that theory when my old SVT would throw a tube. My Heritage has been solid for 3 1/2 years but my 69 SVT has lost a few along the way. I'm certainly not going to insult anyone's intelligence by saying that micros aren't fully capable of delivering the goods on a gig. The times where I had to sub out a micro, it sounded pretty great. Nobody felt cheated, I got a sound I liked, and everyone was happy. But you can totally tell the difference. Might be subtle enough to some where it wouldn't matter to them, but for me it's nearly impossible not to notice. So I'd have to disagree that it's all about the cabinet. It's also very much about the head.
On the bright side, those who say that's way more important to play righteously than to have top-notch gear that costs a few grand are correct.
Jimmy, I *love* tubes and I certainly did NOT write nor did I even suggest there's no difference or that it's "all about the cabinet". Were you reading my post through the haze of a glowing tube or what?
I'm only pointing out that the difference may not all be where some people presume it to be.
How many commenting on this thread have actually A/B'd an SVT vs. a given Class D on the same stack? I have, you have, some others perhaps, but it'd be a short thread if only those persons responded.
Which reminds me; I got a kick out of this video recently, with the bassist having a micro atop an SVT and 8x10 rig. I've done the same thing sometimes as an opener, despite being offered use of the SVT but me wanting nothing to do with the headliner's amp dying during my set. My MarkBass sounds a LOT different cranking through a sealed 8x10 than it does a ported neo 1x12 for home practice that's for sure.
- May 9, 2008
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- Proprietor Springvale Studios
Perhaps not a ford gt 40 but for certain a car with a v8 engine at circa 350 cu in.
- May 9, 2008
- 4,081
- 1,236
- Disclosures
- Proprietor Springvale Studios
It wasn't an insult it was an observation about size, weight and cost, which is what this thread is about.Ignorant insult += NOT good Bass Talk.
Invalid Link Removed remember guys, size doesn't matter, just ask your girl. 
40 some years ago "everyone" wasn't playing SVTs. It was one of the great amps. There were many choices with different tone goals. In the 70s 80s when rental companies featured GK SS heads on Hartke 4x10 + 1x15 it didn't signal that this was the "best" gear available. Can't we resist the fanboy thing and see it's about choice? Yes the thread title is inflammatory. If class D had toppled the SVT, where? In tone? Sales? Concert stages? Most featured in action films?
The question posed was about class D against SVTs. The real question was about tubes. Most of us understood that. Everybody used tubes back then as solid state was barely taking hold. There was no choice.
The closest I can come to in the automotive world as a comparison would be the carburetor vs fuel injection. I equate class D with fuel injection, VVT, and other computerized engine control systems. There's no questioning the power and effeciency advantages. Carbs and single cam pushrod engines simply cannot keep up, given the same displacement.
The same is true for tube technology.
Of course it's about choice.
I'm not a fanboy. If I was, I'd be a fanboy for tube amps if it wasn't for the weight, price, size, and fragility of the newer ones. The weak point always being the PCB mounted components. I want a Traynor YBA-3. But, I'm a realist.
Are you suggesting I should muzzle my opinions? That goes against what this forum is about.
Certainly surpassed in sales.
Tone? Meh...too subjective.
Concert stages? The DI to FOH has surpassed all.
Action films? Not sure. I'm too old to be worried about what constitutes pop culture.
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"inflammatory"?
come on man, it was a question.
Actually, there was a little personal frustration in the title because I've had my CL head for sale over a year, at a good price. Knowing how loved they are I was wondering if they were going out of vogue.
I'd love to keep it, but I want to grab a Berg NV610. I have a TH500, love it...and the only other thing I'd like to try is a Subway.
With 1 in college and another going next fall, I'd rather sell something to help fund another buy.
Anyway, I learn a lot from long threads like this. That's why I hang here.
come on man, it was a question.
Actually, there was a little personal frustration in the title because I've had my CL head for sale over a year, at a good price. Knowing how loved they are I was wondering if they were going out of vogue.
I'd love to keep it, but I want to grab a Berg NV610. I have a TH500, love it...and the only other thing I'd like to try is a Subway.
With 1 in college and another going next fall, I'd rather sell something to help fund another buy.
Anyway, I learn a lot from long threads like this. That's why I hang here.
If you are talking to me, of course you should express your opinions. I was responding to the GT40 vs Fusion comment.
There was humor there too though no emojis.
The joke about pop culture is germane when people see stage props and choose their gear. I was a teen once and wanted a red new no name bass. Didn't matter that the beat P was right next to it. Now I know better.
I was also speaking to all my fellow readers. I just see all kinds of gear everywhere because I go from coffee house, to state dept. dinner, to wedding, to road house, to Kennedy Center, to outdoor jam, pottery opening, winery festival, dank punk club, large concert venue, house concert to studio. No one piece of gear is "best."
There is an interaction between everything we use, to the point of this thread the head and the cabinet. The pairing of the two is important, there is a dynamic.between them. Some pairings work well and others do not, others create flavors that folks may prefer or detest. A new cabinet may require rethinking the head we are using, the failure of trying a new head could be as much what the head does as it is what cabinet we pair it with.
From 1969 until 1986, I played through tube amps; mainly SVT. I finally gave up on lugging the SVT around and bought a GK in 1986. I sold my SVT a few years later. Since 1986, I've used GK, an Ampeg hybrid and Eden amps. I currently have a Subway D800. If I had some extra cash, I would buy a 1970's SVT just to play at home. At my age, an SVT would be better than porn.
Things like "tubes vs ss" tend to not go over well here. This part of the forum can be less friendly than the intention of the op when that stuff gets involved. That said though, to be honest, where I am we still haven't recovered from an economic recession, so it's rare that something would sell for as much as one thinks it should maybe your area is similar. It's great if you're a buyer, not if you're a seller - tubes or no tubes.
As for class D, I think the primary factor is price. Guitarists love tubes, and most guitarists I know use tube amps, though good emulation is possible, it's also expensive and unfeasible for many that don't have a PA to go through. For bass though, I've found for the most part that the difference between tube and solid state in a clean context is comparatively minimal. So there are a lot of bassists that have never and may never have tube rigs. Your area may also be short on people with a need for bass gear. One reason I took up bass if because anybody that can make a sandwich probably also plays guitar, but few play bass or drums.
I had exactly the same experience back when I had an 800RB as a backup for my D-180. Even when I was playing guitar and lending my bass rig to a bandmate too lazy to get his own amp, he'd schlep the D-180 to shows over the GK. +1 lazy guy vote for tubes I guess.
I've switched around between MTI SVT, D-180, PF500, and Bass Terror with the same cabs and instruments. They all had their ups and downs (D-180 sounded good but couldn't handle low B at loud volumes, PF500 got the job done but sounded bland without effects, BT was a total one trick pony but sounded better than the PF when you were doing that one trick, SVT was the only one that could throw a tight low B with authority and sound good doing it).
The micros were also great for letting me take the bus to practice with all my gear. Used both for shows when the SVT was in the shop, they were fine but the weight was irrelevant once we were carting a full drum kit, two half stacks, and two 1x15s.
EDITED: was not expecting to see Ulcerate in this thread. Ha!
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We're talking about two totally different types of touring musicians. I'm not saying your session/theater-playing bassists don't exist! But there's a whole separate constellation of bands (part-time, full-time, etc.) and shows that have nothing to do with that. The touring bassists I'm talking about are definitely not doing backing gigs and orchestra work between tours, and they're also not using micro rigs, IEMs, amp sims, or anything like that.
Anyhow. All I was saying was that people keep generalizing about what professional or touring musicians do based on their experience with the type of players you're talking about BUT there are tons of musicians who don't fit that mold at all.
I suspect we are trading posts crosswise.
This is the Class D I have been using when I need SVT "equivalence:'
Except that the rack now looks like this:
And, I assure you that it isn't a "Ford Fiesta" rig by analogy. Does it have a different tonal palette than an SVT? Sure. But, I've played the SVT (which as I stated, I like) but prefer what this does. Different strokes.
Also, when I pare down for club dates, I've started using this:
with either one or two cabs, depending. I'm still getting to know what this little box can do; but, I assure you that it is NOT a "Ford Fiesta" either. BMW 7 series would probably be more accurate; but, whatever floats your boat.
I tend to play J or J derivative basses, which accounts somewhat for my amplification preferences. If I mainly gigged the P, I would likely prefer the SVT, simply because they do different things. Also, I do NOT play metal and do NOT use distortion; and those aspects also figure in my choices.
You are likewise welcome to your choice. I've played your rig and know what it does. It's a good rig, no doubt. But, let's please be a bit respectful. For one thing, that's how we learn new things. As I've posted elsewhere: COEXIST.
Well, one point in favor of the SVT rig is that it doesn't require going through all these mix and match gyrations.
But, I strongly suspect looking at your gear and play fare profile that you will dig the NV610. One of the all time great cabinets, IME. REALLY close in capability and character to the 810 cab. Also, the thing that makes it stand out is that it just keeps getting better the more you push it. I was never able to top mine out. GL
Weight seems to be on people's minds, but I have to agree that his is a real factor. A brand new SVT-CL is $1800 on MF. Just about all of the most powerful class D heads are under a grand. That's a chunk of change.
The used market for SVT and other tube heads is pretty hot, but you really don't know what you are buying until you inspect it. A 30 year old head can have a lot of iffy stuff going on. Tubes vary greatly in quality, and shipping them in a head is a massive pain (if you are buying off Ebay or Reverb.)
I stand behind my statement, and I think the prevailing opinion, that of course SVTs and their brethren will be around for a while, but the low level working stiff will not be the target market. This gear will be for the big boys only.
However, the greatest threat as I see it, is as the market for rock bands fade due to consumer preference and lack of economic viability, there will be fewer and fewer of these big boys to buy these amps new.
There has never been more rock bands, especially heavy/extreme rock which tends to gravitate to big head gear with colored sound, with more income streams available to them, than today.
Rock & metal are hotter than ever.
You don't have to have power tubes and big iron to get the touch sensitivity. A good compressor will get you some of it, and a proper full-tube preamp (e.g. Monique) will as well. I think the power tube "sag" is far more important to guitar players than to bass players. In part that is due to the wider dynamic range and frequencies that guitar occupy. Fairly rare to have the bass tone up front and exposed, so "working" the instrument is less of a requirement. It still is appreciated by some (myself included), but the relative importance is up to the user and their needs.
The reality is that every element in the chain has some impact on the sound and feel of the instrument. Most of all, the player has their perception and biases, and those will probably have the biggest impact. If you think the amp has interactive touch sensitivity, it likely will.
