Have we all been tricked!?

[iqi616]

Years ago a store I frequented got in several Fender Precision Specials fresh from the factory. Aside from different colors, they were all supposed to be the same. I played through most of them and the sound, playability, and weight varied considerably from bass to bass. I thought a few stood out as better than the others. However since evaluating a bass is largely subjective, it's quite possible you would have ranked the basses different than I.

Was I fooled? I don't think so. There are good basses, and not so good basses, and price is not always the determining factor.

Consistency has improved since I bought my first basses in the late 70s and mid 80s but I still wouldn't buy a bass I hadn't actually tried out in person.

Back to the video - electric guitars are often little more than a signal source for effects boxes!

 

[Cleezmo]

You can spend $30K or $100K for a car to drive you to work every day. Both effectively get you there and back. Some people like spending as little as possible to get the job done, even taking pride in the bang/buck ratio they achieved. Some want to spend more for bells and whistles and feel, and have a sense of pride/status when they hop behind the wheel. Some are in middle. There are lots of choices at all price ranges, everyone gets to decide where on that spectrum they want to be for their own value equation. None of them are 'wrong'.

You can spend $250 on a Squire, or you can spend $10,000 on a Fodera. There are lots of choices in between. All of them will sound like a bass to the audience at your gigs. They will not all feel the same. You get to pick where you want to be in that range. You should not judge or put down others for being on a different part of the range than you are.

 

[WI Short Scaler]

Who are the elitist that diss Fenders and Squirers? I see that stated on TB but have never seen it occur myself. The only bass I've dissed is that all green Dean that every Guitar Center had for awhile.

I don't memorize their names so can't point you specifically. Bashing Fender as a brand is pretty common. Many people have started to recognize that the Squier line has vastly improved over the last several years. That has quieted alot of it.

And that "all green Dean" was really something. Not my thing but if it makes you want to play than do it with pride.

 

[5StringBlues]

Gene Ween needs a green Dean.

 

[JamesGrant]

I've discovered after many years that the key to having my bass sound better is to have someone else play it.

I have a friend who deps for me, and occasionally I dep for him. I'm 100% convinced everything grooves better when he plays, he's 100% convinced that it grooves better when I'm playing. (I think he's just being nice).

 

[ClusterFlux]

I find myself often lusting after high end instruments because they are supposed to far superior.

They aren't.

Prime example I have a MIM Fender p but always scope out stuff like Nash or even some of the custom shop instruments knowing they have to sound so much better.

They don't.

I know things like playability can be argued but with cnc and a quality setup do they play that big of a difference?

Nope.

Maybe I've missed it, but I have never seen a single scrap of scientific research (i.e. quantifiable, repeatable, and based on large samples) that demonstrates the superiority of more expensive electric instruments.

Modern manufacturing has gotten so good that a $400 bass will sound and play just as well as a $4,000 bass. Especially since many of those $400 basses use the exact same neck shape, body shape and pickup location as the $4000 instrument.

Higher-end instruments will have slightly better quality parts, e.g. the pots and tuners will almost always be better quality; the wood will likely have better drying processes, etc. But it seems pretty clear to me that these days, you hit diminishing returns at around the $800 price point.

Even if you still somehow think it matters, well... there's the minor issue that you're amplifying the signal, introducing numerous pinch-points that will alter the sound and almost certainly blow away any tiny nuances in your Unobtanium Pickups (e.g. effects, amp, cab, PA, direct box etc). On top of that is the acoustics of the room, the other instruments you're playing with, the size of the crowd, the skills and preferences of the sound engineer....

Meanwhile, lots of people adore the tones of cheapo instruments used by pros, and some pros use cheap instruments, such as:

• McCartney's Hofner basses (he picked it because it was cheap, and very easy to flip lefty)
• Laura Lee of Khruangbin (she used a cheap Jazz bass clone for years... until Fender copied it for her signature bass )
• Pretty much every instrument on albums by Pavement and Sonic Youth
• Prince's gas-station Telecaster
• EVH's Frankenstein
• Mike Rutherford uses Squier Bullets these days
• Jack White
• A lot of first albums, especially 60s rock bands, 80s indie bands etc


Aaaand of course, logically, buying a more expensive instrument won't make you a better musician. It doesn't improve your timing, your musicality, your ability to read music, your ability to listen to other musicians, your technique, your taste in music....

Feeling this way is just a consequence of living in a consumerist society that has taken over our minds like a virus. If anyone can think of a good way to get rid of it, let me know.

 

[JamesGrant]

In my opinion. Jim Lill's video is gold. For electric 6 string guitar.

I think the various differences for bass guitars actually do make more of a difference, you can get or shift dead spots on the neck with different weights/dimensions so something about the mass of the instrument is making something different.

But I also think that the player makes the biggest difference, followed by the strings, followed by pickup type/position.

 

[TyBo]

That's an old video that's already been done to death in several threads here. I'll say one thing on the idea that wood makes no difference, because pickups can't "hear" it: dead spots.

 

[red_rhino]

Ah, I love the smell of troll threads in the morning.

I have better things to beat than a dead horse.

But if you string a dead horse between two tables and flog it with a flatwound, you can be "tricked" into believing it sounds just like a 65 P-bass.

 

[Cardsfan85]

Why have an actual, playable instrument when you can just string up some benches and make sounds?

Why didn't I think of this?!!

Insightful!

 

[wboyd68]

I play basses that appeal to me because that's what makes me feel good. I've yet to find a cheap one that actually appeals to me. That may be an issue with my perception but at this point in my life it's not a problem for me.

 

[Geogio]

My 2-centavos

1. Get a 7 band eq pedal. If money is an issue, purchase a Behringer.

2. Go to a music store that carries Fender take the Fender American professional II Jazz bass off the hook and play it for 15 or 20 minutes. Now make a decision focused overall on how that bass feels versus your present instrument.

Number 2 will help with your position on the bass in question as it regards to feel.

Number 1 will help people realize how to achieve many bread and butter sonic goals without the sizable cost of boutique pick-ups.

 

[Clark W]

You can spend $30K or $100K for a car to drive you to work every day. Both effectively get you there and back. Some people like spending as little as possible to get the job done, even taking pride in the bang/buck ratio they achieved. Some want to spend more for bells and whistles and feel, and have a sense of pride/status when they hop behind the wheel. Some are in middle. There are lots of choices at all price ranges, everyone gets to decide where on that spectrum they want to be for their own value equation. None of them are 'wrong'.

You can spend $250 on a Squire, or you can spend $10,000 on a Fodera. There are lots of choices in between. All of them will sound like a bass to the audience at your gigs. They will not all feel the same. You get to pick where you want to be in that range. You should not judge or put down others for being on a different part of the range than you are.

This right here^^^

One of the best playing, and sounding local pro bassists in my area plays an Ibanez Gio GSR200. We're talking a bass that costs under 300 bucks new. I think you could make a washtub bass and the guy would make it sound like a million bucks.

I own a MIM P bass with a FCS 62 P pup. Cost me 500 bucks. Got it used right here on TB. It's a great sounding bass, playability is about 7 out of 10. But it gets the job done. Have not done a thing to it other than strings and setup adjustments.

I own a Am Performer Precision PJ that cost me about 1400 new. I love the neck, the body, the feel, but hated the greasebucket tone circuit, the pups, and the black pickguard. So I spent about another 400 on it. All new controls, pickguard, Aguilar's hum cancelling PJ pup set and no greasebucket circuit. The bass is a beast.

I own what started out as a Custom 68 body by Kevin Ferner of Ferner Fine Instruments. When we got done, it's a $6500 bass. It's as fine a specimen of a bass that I have ever owned. It's inspiring to play and gives me the confidence to step out of my comfort zone and play things I would normally not attempt on the MIM P, and some things I wouldn't attempt on the Performer too. The neck on it is fast, really fast. But the neck on it is also spec'd out differently than the necks on my Fenders. And the neck on the Performer is faster playing than the neck on my MIM yet they are supposedly spec'd the same.

But, like you said, it doesn't matter which bass I play, most of the audience will never notice the difference between them other than the looks. What matters is the joy playing them brings me. It's like owning a Camaro, a Corvette, and a Lamborghini.

 

[KidAmnesia]

After watching this video I simply ordered a lollar p pickup convinced that as far as sound goes it will be there.

Soooo where does the tone of the pickup come from? All pickups*, from the cheapest to the most expensive are a coil of copper wire wrapped around a magnet. What makes that Lollar so special?

*yes I know there are a few designs that are a bit different.

 

[Clark W]

Soooo where does the tone of the pickup come from? All pickups*, from the cheapest to the most expensive are a coil of copper wire wrapped around a magnet. What makes that Lollar so special?

*yes I know there are a few designs that are a bit different.

So Fender has the Yosemite pickups that they used in the American Performer Series. Shellacked instead of waxed. I don't know what the difference is between shellacking a pup vs potting it in wax, but there's a difference. I've never been a fan of the Yosemite pup.

Then there's magnets. different variations of Alnico, Ferrite, Neo, Fender even has pups using a blend of FeCrCo (iron, chromium, and cobalt) magnets that are priced on up there in boutique pricing.

Let's look at Alnico. According to Seymour Duncan, Alnico 2 pickups offer a warmer, vintage, and mid-focused tone with a softer, compressed attack (e.g., Seymour Duncan APH-1). Conversely, Alnico 5 pickups provide higher output, more bass and treble (scooped mids), and a tighter, more modern feel

In my 3 main basses I have a FCS 62 P Pup, Aguilar's hum canceling PJ set, and a Jazz/HB set up using Delano pickups that are all split single coils, one for the Jazz pup, two for the Humbucker, so 3 split single coils under the hood.

There's a lot more to pups than just winding copper around a some magnets.

 

[Plectrum72]

Who are the elitist that diss Fenders and Squirers? I see that stated on TB but have never seen it occur myself. The only bass I've dissed is that all green Dean that every Guitar Center had for awhile.

I'm with you on the green Dean (fugly color), that's why I got the pink one instead. It's actually a great bass and weirdly, it's consistently in my #2 spot among my ~20 basses (#1 rotates occasionally depending on mood and is sometimes the Dean).

 

[porkynuggets]

We have discussed that vid a multitude of times. It actually shows zero of interest to the player.

There are several aspects related to instrument selection. The electrical component of the "tone" is just one aspect. The OP vid does show a certain amount of information about inductively coupled electric instrument sound production.

Other critical aspects are related to how the instrument responds in the player's hands. The OP vid wholly leaves out these essential aspects. No two instruments feel precisely the same to the player. Being mostly made of wood, the resonant characteristics are pretty widely and significantly variable. Sure, it is possible to eliminate the wood, if you choose. But, instruments of that sort tend to have unimpressive playing vibe.

When we perform, the objective is to entertain the audience. For that purpose, playing well is top of the list. So, concentration on the music, not the instrument, is absolutely required. The instrument needs to feel sufficiently comfortable, and responsive throughout the playing register to NOT be a distraction. More easily said than done; and the reason players are constantly on the lookout.

Further, the signal chain between the board and the audience's ears can be make or break. Not only are there significant variations in the signal chain; but those variables are interactive with the different instrument characteristics.

There is just a bit more to the whole picture. That often referenced vid is largely useless, other than fomenting a continuously uninformed "debate."

Carry on.

This and the video are saying the same thing to me: tone is in the hands

 

[Clark W]

This and the video are saying the same thing to me: tone is in the hands

There's a lot more to tone than just our hands. Type of wood used in the neck, fretboard and body, brass vs aluminum in the bridge, strings, pickups, preamps, amps, cabs, fingers vs pick, and of course your hand's playing position.

My Fenders have alder bodies, maple necks, maple fretboards, and aluminum bridges, are typically bright instruments. My custom bass, 3 piece maple, mahogany, maple neck with a Macassar Ebony fretboard, alder body with a maple top and brass bridge, is a dark sounding bass and sounds best with really bright rounds like D'Addario NYXL or Pro Steels. Strings that I would never use on my Fenders because they're too bright on my Fenders. But on my custom bass they're awesome.

And if Geddy Lee is to be believed, there's even a difference in tone on a maple neck/fretboard between pearl block inlays and solid black inlays.

 

[micguy]

That's an old video that's already been done to death in several threads here. I'll say one thing on the idea that wood makes no difference, because pickups can't "hear" it: dead spots.

The video in question is often cited as somehow showing that the wood in a guitar makes no difference. I'm a scientist (an acoustical Physicist to be more precise) - if I wanted to test whether or not the wood in a guitar makes a difference to the sound, I would design an experiment where there was....no wood. Anchoring the ends of the strings to two wood benches means there is MORE wood involved in this thing than in a normal guitar - it's a horribly designed experiment for what people say it "shows".

A Snark tuner works on my basses, no matter where I put it. That means the wood is vibrating. That energy comes from the strings - until I pluck a string, the Snark doesn't "see" a note. Any time the physical platform of an instrument takes energy from the strings, it affects how the string vibrates, because that energy was stolen from the string(s). The most obvious example of this is a dead spot - the neck steals a lot of energy quickly from a string at a specific frequency and that note sounds VERY different than others. Also, the pickups on an instrument are mounted to the wood, which (as we've established) is moving. One thing that some folks miss is that pickups do not just sense the string motion - they sense the relative motion of the strings and body at the point where the pickup is attached - if either is moving (and we know both are), those motions are both in the output signal of the instrument.

The wood's motion and energy theft mean that they do definitely make the instrument operate differently - that's established. What is not so obvious (it's very difficult to design an experiment to show this) is how audible that contribution is in a solid bodied instrument.

 

[porkynuggets]

There's a lot more to tone than just our hands. Type of wood used in the neck, fretboard and body, brass vs aluminum in the bridge, strings, pickups, preamps, amps, cabs, fingers vs pick, and of course your hand's playing position.

My Fenders have alder bodies, maple necks, maple fretboards, and aluminum bridges, are typically bright instruments. My custom bass, 3 piece maple, mahogany, maple neck with a Macassar Ebony fretboard, alder body with a maple top and brass bridge, is a dark sounding bass and sounds best with really bright rounds like D'Addario NYXL or Pro Steels. Strings that I would never use on my Fenders because they're too bright on my Fenders. But on my custom bass they're awesome.

And if Geddy Lee is to be believed, there's even a difference in tone on a maple neck/fretboard between pearl block inlays and solid black inlays.

All negligible compared to the difference between players