Have we all been tricked!?

[andare]

I have a friend who deps for me, and occasionally I dep for him. I'm 100% convinced everything grooves better when he plays, he's 100% convinced that it grooves better when I'm playing. (I think he's just being nice).

What do you mean by "deps"? Subs?

 

[logdrum]

I do not know,... How can we be sure that the signal chain from that video did not go through some sound processing. Ne achieved one goal. To get more hits on his YT page

 

[Watchootognbout]

All of my bass "heroes" had different tones from different basses.
I've focused on their techniques.

Most any bass can be dialed into an "approximate"tone or sound.
So I have never really been a "tone seeker"
So that frees me to choose basses according to my aesthetic preferences.

 

[TyBo]

The video in question is often cited as somehow showing that the wood in a guitar makes no difference. I'm a scientist (an acoustical Physicist to be more precise) - if I wanted to test whether or not the wood in a guitar makes a difference to the sound, I would design an experiment where there was....no wood. Anchoring the ends of the strings to two wood benches means there is MORE wood involved in this thing than in a normal guitar - it's a horribly designed experiment for what people say it "shows".

A Snark tuner works on my basses, no matter where I put it. That means the wood is vibrating. That energy comes from the strings - until I pluck a string, the Snark doesn't "see" a note. Any time the physical platform of an instrument takes energy from the strings, it affects how the string vibrates, because that energy was stolen from the string(s). The most obvious example of this is a dead spot - the neck steals a lot of energy quickly from a string at a specific frequency and that note sounds VERY different than others. Also, the pickups on an instrument are mounted to the wood, which (as we've established) is moving. One thing that some folks miss is that pickups do not just sense the string motion - they sense the relative motion of the strings and body at the point where the pickup is attached - if either is moving (and we know both are), those motions are both in the output signal of the instrument.

The wood's motion and energy theft mean that they do definitely make the instrument operate differently - that's established. What is not so obvious (it's very difficult to design an experiment to show this) is how audible that contribution is in a solid bodied instrument.

Yes. It does seem difficult to design an experiment to show how audible differences in solid body materials are. There was a study posted in previous threads here on the topic (Scandinavian, maybe? Canadian? Don't recall) just using slabs of different wood with a string/bridge/pickup assembly attached, sequentially, amplified. A significant number of subjects heard a difference between them, for whatever that's worth. Not really definitive, but interesting.
My own experience is that the more an instrument resonates (in the common usage of that word), the more full sounding and touch sensitive it is amplified. Subjective, doesn't prove anything (other than to me personally ). A number of great players have expressed similar experience, as for example Larry Carlton's advice on buying an electric guitar: play it unamplified, if that's responsive and satisfying it's likely to be a keeper.

 

[jd56hawk]

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not (I know it has too many strings) but this video is super interesting. I find myself often lusting after high end instruments because they are supposed to far superior. Prime example I have a MIM Fender p but always scope out stuff like Nash or even some of the custom shop instruments knowing they have to sound so much better. After watching this video I simply ordered a lollar p pickup convinced that as far as sound goes it will be there. I know things like playability can be argued but with cnc and a quality setup do they play that big of a difference? I know this is an argument that happens almost every week and I'm not knocking anyone for indulging in high end instruments at all.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I haven't been tricked.
I'm big on bargain-priced basses, I've owned quite a few, but my MIJ Bacchus Woodline is exactly what I expected...a high-end bass that's worth every penny I paid for it and puts to shame all those "Look what I got for only ______________ dollars" basses.

 

[Root 5]

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not (I know it has too many strings) but this video is super interesting. I find myself often lusting after high end instruments because they are supposed to far superior. Prime example I have a MIM Fender p but always scope out stuff like Nash or even some of the custom shop instruments knowing they have to sound so much better. After watching this video I simply ordered a lollar p pickup convinced that as far as sound goes it will be there. I know things like playability can be argued but with cnc and a quality setup do they play that big of a difference? I know this is an argument that happens almost every week and I'm not knocking anyone for indulging in high end instruments at all.

Yes we have. I've been a bassist/guitarist for 45 years and it took me a long time to figure out I didn't need a Ken Smith, Fodera, NY Sadowsky, Alembic etc to sound 'pro.'

I began to clue in when I'd listen to recordings and the shock I'd feel when realizing - as much as I didn't want it to be true - my 'cheap, inexpensive' instruments sounded as good as my expensive gear.

Dont believe me? I'm wrong? Make recordings and listen back to them.

Look, I love the look of Spectors, Smiths, FBasses, Alembics as much as other people. I just won't fool myself into believing they sound better. Because they don't.

Those companies want to sell us $10k+ bass guitars because they make massive profit on them. But what can they sell us on??
'It will sound better!'
It will play better!' (Inexpensive basses can be made to play just as well. Shock, eh!)

Have any of you guys visited the Warwick factory in Germany and seen the reception centre? Yeah they're making a lot of money.

Let's talk guitars for a minute. Paul Reed Smith will tell us that 'tonewoods' matter. Well it's in his financial interests to say it does and bass builders are the same.

 

[Root 5]

 

[dbflats]

It seems odd to have to mention it so late in this convo, but surely we're not all after the same tone.

The other tidbit I'll mention is that one of the things that adds cost on expensive instruments is fancy onboard electronics. And yes this can be great, but it's also true that a more stripped down instrument platform going into one or two goodies on the floor, in the rack, DAW, etc, can easily yield equally good results and better, depending on what you're after.

 

[TyBo]

Yes we have. I've been a bassist/guitarist for 45 years and it took me a long time to figure out I didn't need a Ken Smith, Fodera, NY Sadowsky, Alembic etc to sound 'pro.'

I began to clue in when I'd listen to recordings and the shock I'd feel when realizing - as much as I didn't want it to be true - my 'cheap, inexpensive' instruments sounded as good as my expensive gear.

Dont believe me? I'm wrong? Make recordings and listen back to them.

Look, I love the look of Spectors, Smiths, FBasses, Alembics as much as other people. I just won't fool myself into believing they sound better. Because they don't.

Those companies want to sell us $10k+ bass guitars because they make massive profit on them. But what can they sell us on??
'It will sound better!'
It will play better!' (Inexpensive basses can be made to play just as well. Shock, eh!)

Have any of you guys visited the Warwick factory in Germany and seen the reception centre? Yeah they're making a lot of money.

Let's talk guitars for a minute. Paul Reed Smith will tell us that 'tonewoods' matter. Well it's in his financial interests to say it does and bass builders are the same.

"In his financial interest", don't mean he's bs-ing. It's also in a manufacturer's interest to give people something they like. Or, look at Roger Sadowsky's video on the subject.
One thing about wood in instruments is that it's pretty specific to the Individual piece - there might be species trends, but it's about that particular instrument. I had a cheap plywood body instrument that rang like a bell, go figure, not typical, but there it was. So sure, find a cheapie that appeals, great.

 

[Root 5]

"In his financial interest", don't mean he's bs-ing. It's also in a manufacturer's interest to give people something they like. Or, look at Roger Sadowsky's video on the subject.
One thing about wood in instruments is that it's pretty specific to the Individual piece - there might be species trends, but it's about that particular instrument. I had a cheap plywood body instrument that rang like a bell, go figure, not typical, but there it was. So sure, find a cheapie that appeals, great.

"People" have been trained & taught what they will like.

Fender freaks wax poetic about the sonic qualities of alder and ash. Leo Fender chose them because they were inexpensive & plentiful woods!

Acoustic guitarists have been trained that their dreadnought better be made of rosewood and Sitka spruce, all mahogany, or Sitka spruce and curly maple back & sides! Otherwise it's unacceptable!

Customers didnt come up with these ideas on their own..

 

[Malak the Mad]

Why have an actual, playable instrument when you can just string up some benches and make sounds?

Why didn't I think of this?!!

Meanwhile, lots of people adore the tones of cheapo instruments used by pros, and some pros use cheap instruments, such as:
<snip>
• Jack White

This always brings me back to the opening of "It Might Get Loud" which pretty much speaks for itself.

Who are the elitist that diss Fenders and Squirers? I see that stated on TB but have never seen it occur myself. The only bass I've dissed is that all green Dean that every Guitar Center had for awhile.

There was a guy I had to interact politely with two years in a row at a particular convention. He was a guest and I worked in the Hospitality branch of Guest Relations, so "polite interaction" was important.

Unfortunately, the guy was definitely a "country-of-origin"-snob. I won't go into the whole story, but when he gave a parts-bass Projekt I'd assembled a good shakedown, he could not get over how an Indonesian-made Squier neck could feel so good without modifications. While he was in mid-flummox, I gently "tapped him upside the head with the Clue-By-Four" (re: inflicted a much-needed dose of perspective) by saying;

"A good piece of wood is still a good piece of wood, no matter it's country of origin."

Suffice it to say, the baffled look on his face was, and always will be, priceless to me.

 

[red_rhino]

Why does every thread that begins with this video devolve in a debate about about how much one should or should not spend on an instrument (or more accurately, the relative merits of inexpensive vs expensive instruments)? There are a lot of factors that influence the cost of an instrument at every price point. And even within a given price range, there are different things that matter to different people.

If that $5 particle board bass plays and sounds amazing to you, rock on. (Just be warned that I can hear the difference between the sawdust from Leo's original Fullerton shop vs rando sweepings from the factory in Indonesia where my coffee table was made. ).

 

[Geri O]

Why does every thread that begins with this video devolve in a debate about about how much one should or should not spend on an instrument (or more accurately, the relative merits of inexpensive vs expensive instruments)? There are a lot of factors that influence the cost of an instrument at every price point. And even within a given price range, there are different things that matter to different people.

If that $5 particle board bass plays and sounds amazing to you, rock on. (Just be warned that I can hear the difference between the sawdust from Leo's original Fullerton shop vs rando sweepings from the factory in Indonesia where my coffee table was made. ).

Because those same people with their agenda to foist on everyone keep showing up.

Every time.....

 

[Geri O]

Customers didnt come up with these ideas on their own..

Speak for yourself.

 

[VicDiesel]

my basses will still inspire me.

I can cut whatever you said before that, whether that's budget or budget-busting, and that statement will be equally true. Play whatever inspires you.

 

[sleddogn]

where exactly did the horse touch you?

 

[TyBo]

"People" have been trained & taught what they will like.

Fender freaks wax poetic about the sonic qualities of alder and ash. Leo Fender chose them because they were inexpensive & plentiful woods!

Acoustic guitarists have been trained that their dreadnought better be made of rosewood and Sitka spruce, all mahogany, or Sitka spruce and curly maple back & sides! Otherwise it's unacceptable!

Customers didnt come up with these ideas on their own..

I dunno if "customers don't come up with these ideas on their own", but I think guitarists/bassists sometimes do. Witness a number of top level players who find that playing an instrument unamplified is useful to gauge its potential as an electric instrument. I mentioned Larry Carlton earlier, Kenny Vaughan is another I heard recently, saying he likes pine body Teles due to the response they tend to give. If your "controller"(instrument) responds in a favorable way, then so much the better when amplifying it.
I've found pine to be an agreeable body wood myself. Put together a pine Strat, and that thing is a cannon, acoustically. Sounds great amplified too, of course. I put in some ultra cheap Strat shape P 90 -ish pickups, $25 for all 3! Sounds fantastic. Whatever works.

 

[Gosho]

The guitar/bass was invented and built once! And it was made in the best possible way. For a guitar to be "alive," it needs to be made of wood. Still, if someone prefers, they can carry around a table like the one shown in the video,drag it, unfold it, tune it, haul it, load it and unload it, and with a smile try to prove to people who actually dont care where the damn tone comes from.

 

[ga_edwards]

I remember Lee Anderton (of Andertons, UK) saying something along the lines of... A CNC machine doesn't know where it is in the world, so savings can be made there. But the biggest cost difference between low and high-end instruments is the human factor i.e. how much of the work is done by actual people, by hand. I believe he may have said the cost of actual components between them isn't as high as you might think.

On the other side of the coin, automated processes have gotten much, much better in recent years. So much so that many people would argue that Squier CV rivals some MIM or USA made fenders.

 

[tvbop]

As long as your tone has a bit of mid range in it then what really matters is ur playing . Sure theres a few recordings where the bass sounds "different" but by and large bass all sounds pretty much the same and I think the general listening audience will agree. A good analogy is classical strings. They all sound pretty much the same and are all incredibly difficult to play, but its the study, practise and down right hard work that enables a classical player to sound good.