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Heavy vs. light power section

I would think this would be true for similarly spec'd power amps. However, there are SO many other differences in integrated heads, that they all do sound quite different, and have quite different volume and low end response that does not always seem to correlate to the pure published spec's.

Heads are a different story because of the EQ, processing, and sometimes FX available in the preamp section. It makes sense to do this tone-shaping stuff at line level (< a few volts) than at power level (many volts). The power amp section in a head or combo is usually quite flat, and in linear pro power amps, the response is almost always extremely flat and accurate. Unlike the preamp, the power amp is solely a gain stage, not a tone+gain stage.

Regarding believing.... the biggest wish of my bass playing life is that my 7 pound amp sounds as full as my 40 pound one!!!!! Unfortunately, at least for some playing styles at loud volumes, wishing does not make it so!

Yes, wishing is not the same as believing.

BTW, for anyone interested up in the Bay Area, I'm going to give a talk and presentation on power amp technology for the San Francisco section of the Audio Engineering Society on Tuesday, February 20 at Cogswell Polytechnical College in Sunnyvale, Calif. I think it's supposed to start at 8 PM; they'll post further info at Invalid Link Removed.
 
For the mods anyway: evidently they keep changing the title and the datestamps of an old thread just to tease everybody.


Ha! Of course this stuff has been discussed to death:D However, always interesting to me... especially when discussing 'all in one heads', which is a little less 'dry' than pure power amps:)

There are many TBers who don't get a chance to hear this stuff in a live situation, and the question 'is the extra 20 pounds of the TB750 worth it' over the Eden or whatever seems to be a reasonable question to me!
 
There are many TBers who don't get a chance to hear this stuff in a live situation, and the question 'is the extra 20 pounds of the TB750 worth it' over the Eden or whatever seems to be a reasonable question to me!

A very reasonable question and, for a gigging musician, one of the most important questions. As you know, basses, amps, cabs, effects, etc. all sound better/worse/different at different volumes/in different venues/in different mixes. The reports/reviews offered on this site by other gigging musicians about the pros and cons of their equipment are invaluable.
 
A very reasonable question and, for a gigging musician, one of the most important questions. As you know, basses, amps, cabs, effects, etc. all sound better/worse/different at different volumes/in different venues/in different mixes. The reports/reviews offered on this site by other gigging musicians about the pros and cons of their equipment are invaluable.


I was just tweeking! You know, my friend Alexclaber and others who are MUCH more 'in the know' on the technical aspects of this stuff, probably role their eyes at some of these discussions, and I don't blame them:D And, for pure, equally spec'd power amps of different designs, I stay out of those discussions.

However, it is interesting how very different these 'all in one heads' sound from one another... tone wise, voicing wise, ooomph wise, etc. Some sound quite different from what you would expect from looking at the specs.:D
 

Hey, it's true. If I remember correctly (and I might not!), you heard the Thunderfunk limiter as providing extra girth to the signal until you were told by Dave that what you were hearing is an increase in the gain caused by the introduction of the limiter circuit.

The most important evaluation is whether the gear works for its intended purpose, not whether the science behind the gear is good or bad. Real world gigging tests are really the most useful information.
 
I was just tweeking! You know, my friend Alexclaber and others who are MUCH more 'in the know' on the technical aspects of this stuff, probably role their eyes at some of these discussions, and I don't blame them:D And, for pure, equally spec'd power amps of different designs, I stay out of those discussions.

I try not to roll my eyes. Everyone is here to learn, share and enjoy themselves.

However, it is interesting how very different these 'all in one heads' sound from one another... tone wise, voicing wise, ooomph wise, etc. Some sound quite different from what you would expect from looking at the specs.:D

I couldn't agree more.
 
Lighter means higher technology, lighter switching power supplies, power stages that generate less heat and need less heat sinking. The hi-fi communities are all talking about clean uncolored high powered amps that happen to also be lighter weight. And in home theater, if you buy a 840Watt THX certified amp, you can be sure it puts out 840W.

It could be that the sampling of amps heard on this board show some similar tendencies that would indicate lighter weight affects the sound. If so, it's a flaw in the lightweight amps they've heard.

Double blind testing would prove a lot of this out. But I don't know who would ever do it.

In the meantime my vote is weight has nothing to do with sound if it's a quality power amp.
 
Bob, could you explain why QSC makes lighter and heavier amps? I didn't go through all the specs of the two models I mentioned earlier in this thread, so excuse me if there is any huge difference I missed!

The RMX series amps use conventional power supplies, in which the power transformer operates at the AC mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz). Conventional supplies are inherently simple and easy to design, and they're pretty easy to scale up or down in power. The biggest thing is that as long as the transformer and reservoir capacitance are scaled adequately to the task, it's hard to go wrong. The RMX circuit designs are largely based on past QSC amp ranges like MXa and EX, only updated.

The PLX amps use switch-mode power supplies, in which the power transformer operates at a high frequency (approx. 110 kHz). The supplies are much more complex and involved a lot of R&D. Essentially, they take the incoming AC, rectify it into DC and store it in a big reservoir capacitance, and use that ~340-volt DC to make 120 volt 110 kHz AC for the transformer. The audio circuitry is a bit more elaborate, too, because Pat Quilter designed in a bunch of little circuit tweaks to address typical power amp issues such as crossover distortion, accurate thermal tracking of bias, et al.

Both lines are general-purpose power amps, as opposed to our power amp lines that have features specific to certain market segments like touring, cinema, installed systems, etc. QSC contracts with a company in China to manufacture the RMX amps, but the PLX are made right here in California in the same building I work in. The prices of the four lower-power RMX models are much lower than the PLX models.

I usually advise someone trying to decide between RMX and PLX that if you're gigging maybe once or twice a month, go with RMX; the weight won't bother you that infrequently, and you can make the financial return on your investment more quickly. If you're gigging a lot, like once or twice a week, you should consider the PLX because the lighter weight will probably be less wearing on you, and it would probably be a lot easier to swing the higher price.

That said, I won't tell you that using any particular brand or model of power amp--even QSC--will give you superior sound and tone over another, because it almost always isn't true. Look for brand reputation, reliability, support, service, etc.
 
Yeah, thanks for the long answer Bob! All that said, I can't help but wonder what makes Aguilar and Glockenklang insist in using heavy power sections... Can it be that they don't have the expertise? They are top brands with many years on their back... Can it be the cost? Again, they are among the most expensive amps out there. It definitely loses them customers (how many times have you read "I loved my DB750 but I sold it because my back hated it"?), so I wonder why they do it if they could get the same results with a lighter power section.
 
Yeah, thanks for the long answer Bob! All that said, I can't help but wonder what makes Aguilar and Glockenklang insist in using heavy power sections... Can it be that they don't have the expertise? They are top brands with many years on their back... Can it be the cost? Again, they are among the most expensive amps out there. It definitely loses them customers (how many times have you read "I loved my DB750 but I sold it because my back hated it"?), so I wonder why they do it if they could get the same results with a lighter power section.

They might, but it would probably require a significant investment and allocation of very specialized R&D resources. I wouldn't blame them if they decided "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
 
That said, I won't tell you that using any particular brand or model of power amp--even QSC--will give you superior sound and tone over another, because it almost always isn't true. Look for brand reputation, reliability, support, service, etc.
Gotta love engineers. Sadly, this sort of integrity is usually all too lacking in audio.

Note to the OP and interested others; when doing a comparison, it's extremely important to mtch the levels at the output to within a small fraction of a dB. Louder almost always sounds better, so unless matched, the comparison is seriously flawed.