• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Heavy vs. light power section

The one amp that I remember a post on here about, that the player said had a noticeable delay, was the Peavey DPC1400X.
It also was the amp, that I was thinking about getting. I have also read posts on here , saying that the Stewarts had the same type of an audible delay. They all have said that it wasn't much of a delay, but it was noticeable to their ear. That is all I have to go by, as I have never actually played through one, or owned one, and I probably won't, until the prices come down to the point of the heavy amps. It just issn't worth the extra money in my book.

OK good to know.
It'd be easy to test, show input signal over output. Something consumers would demand in the specs.

All in all, lightweight amps are as low as heavies were a few years ago. It seems all have fallen in prices, but I expect the lightweights to be more prevalent in the market as shipping costs from overseas factories rise.
 
OK, what I'll try to do one of the next weeks is take fullrangebass and his EA iAmp800, my Eden WT550 and go to the greek dealer of Carvin to A/B/C compare them to the B1500 at similar volumes. I'll try to also use the preamp from the Eden for example into the power section of the Carvin. This way we'll have two un-biased opinions - I'm just not sure how soon this can happen, as we both work and live in different towns... but when it happens I'll let you know how it went.

I'd concider the lightest weight, class-d with switching power supply.

IAmp800 is class-d with conventional power supply.
WT550 is class-ab with switching power supply
Carvins are class-ab with conventional power supply.
Unless you do one of their new PA heads which have a switching power supply.
Are you going to do this blind testing wise - ABX, and what speakers?
"Unbiased" takes a lot of work and effort to do it right.
 
We'll see, since there will be two of us we can have one changing power sections and the other one looking the other way... depends on the store owner as well (many greek store owners aren't half as cool as other europeans/americans with customers testing gear for more than 10 minutes), we'll see. The cab also depends on what we'll find there, but of course we'll use the same cab for the comparisons.
 
I'd concider the lightest weight, class-d with switching power supply.

IAmp800 is class-d with conventional power supply.
WT550 is class-ab with switching power supply
Carvins are class-ab with conventional power supply.
Unless you do one of their new PA heads which have a switching power supply.
Are you going to do this blind testing wise - ABX, and what speakers?
"Unbiased" takes a lot of work and effort to do it right.


+1 to the above.. the WT550 is a classic design like the Thunderfunk... class A/B with transformer...

I do think the Epi502 and iAmp800 design are pretty cool... a big old transformer for the ooomph, but class D to eliminate a need for a fan and to keep down weight. Pretty snazzy!
 
Here's one of my infamous continuums of amps and their ability, in my experience, to generate a very strong, loud, punchy, quick, deep low fundamental from the bass guitar at high volumes... from 'weak to strong into a large 4ohm cab'... (again, not really volume, more 'substance' of the tone when cranked up and played down low and aggressive... think of slapping an open E string with the amp cranked up).


Walter Woods
AI Focus

Mesa Walkabout
EBS350

Glock Soul

EdenWT405 and 550
AG500

Thunderfunk
EBS650

SWR900

iAmp800
EdenWT800
MPulse600

Mesa M2000

DB750
CarvinB1500
Glock Heart Rock


Of course, there are many other heads out there, but these are the ones I've actually heard at loud volume and have direct experience with. If you look at the spec's, there is a very low correlation with published wattage, but a very high correlation with weight!

IMO of course.

K

I find this list to be very interesting. Thanks, Ken.

It was said along the way that the differences are due mainly to the preamp design and have little to due with the poweramp design.

I guess the only conclusion one could draw is that the companies that may not have the technical savy to design a lightweight power section excel when it comes to designing a preamp for the "very strong, loud, punchy, quick, deep low fundamental from the bass guitar at high volumes..." tone.
 
As far as the earlier posts concerning perceived differences.....

it seems to be reasonably well established that people's ears are very crummy meters...... You hear on a sliding scale, that depends on your attitude, mood, what you had for breakfast, did you drive to the test at 75 mph with the top down.... etc. No absolutes, except maybe pitch, for some.

It is equally well established, I think, that ears are really good at detecting "changes" and "balance".

If a sound changes timbre or loudness, you are attuned to notice it.

One "decibel" is supposed to be the minimum perceived difference in volume in "ideal" conditions, but I believe that was with certain test signals. One can often hear a smaller change, depending on the person and the test signal. Or one may be unable to discern a one dB change, with some other test signals.

Another thing is "balance". Musically attuned people have been able to notice a relatively minor "slope" in the overall frequency response. That is, bass down relative to highs, or the reverse, mid up, etc..

Not "how much" down or up, but the fact that the sound is darker or brighter.

So if someone notices a particular amp sounds "less bright" than another, it may not be BS, they may be responding to a somewhat minor slope in response.

It makes sense that we would hear like that. The shuffling of leaves or snapping of twigs at a distance (not as much of a threat) would be important to distinguish from the bright snappy sound of something stepping along very close to you.

If you responded always as if it were a close threat, you'd wear out from pure nervous fatigue in the wild. So the ability to distinguish is in us.

Not surprising if we can use that to hear differences in speakers or amps or whatever.

I agree, most amps if intended to be "flat" are quite flat, at least at small signals. The power response "may" be different, depending.

Speakers vary, there isn't one really flat commercially available practical speaker, just ones that are pretty good. And their power response AND basic frequency response, distortion, etc, varies with level, level history, etc, etc.....

Lightweight amps vs heavy?

Well, the better (in terms of sustained power) the lightweight amp is, the heavier it likely will be. And some other detail design choices have a lot to do with it also, as does cost, etc.

A lightweight SMPS type amp with no cost limits could be made to equal ANY other amp made, using any technology. And it would ALWAYS BE LIGHTER. it definitely would not always cost less, or even the same.
 
That's part of my plan actually, but only if we go through the standard drill with recorded material and find no meaningful differences. I'm hoping to do this on Sunday actually. Anyone from the Portland area (or beyond if you like to drive) can PM me if they want to come out to the Gorge and check it out.

Something else you might also want to consider is context. I can only speak for myself but I actually find it much easier to discern differences in amps when they are being used with a band as opposed to side by side testing. I've actually found that differences that I perceived as minor when comparing amps side by side have proven to be major when used in context. To me it's a bit like trying to compare two high performance vehicles. If you don't have a racetrack and a stopwatch many variables can lead you astray. Not to mention that if differences are imperceptible when the amp is being used for it's intended purpose (ie in context) they aren't worth much! I also think that the idea of context fits with much of what Jerrold just said.

Anyway, as well as simple side by side testing you might want to consider having a standard backing track to jam to. Comparing results between all the different tests would be interesting.
 
Anyway, as well as simple side by side testing you might want to consider having a standard backing track to jam to. Comparing results between all the different tests would be interesting.

I've considered all that, thanks! I will start with the fewest possible variables and work from there as time (and my patience) allows. Inevitably someone will disagree with my methodology, I'm sure.;)
 
Given relationships between frequency response and group delay, a speaker would have to be deliberately contrived to introduce a delay without also having a noticeably non-flat frequency response curve. For this reason alone, an audible delay in a Class-D amp is implausible. Like Seamonkey says, input-versus-output oscilloscope traces would easily check this.
 

Latest posts