Heavy vs. light power section

[greenboy]

Actually Behringer will be introducing a new power amp line soon that comes with a thick lead faceplate (surprisingly reminiscient of a CA-9) and some weights you can attachto the back - and a light aluminum one that kinda looks like a PLX.

Also the Behringer BRICK TENTHOUSE™ amplifier will include with each faceplate the appropriate input gain circuitry. When equipped with the lead plate the input sensitivity will be .7 volts; with the aluminum one, 1.9 volts.

 

[pickles]

Louder sounds louder, not better. Yes yes, Fletcher-Munson Curves are very interesting.

What exactly is the "perceived bass and treble boost" you get from a signal that is 1-2db louder? A tenth of a db perhaps?

 

[greenboy]

Louder sounds louder, not better. Yes yes, Fletcher-Munson Curves are very interesting.

What exactly is the "perceived bass and treble boost" you get from a signal that is 1-2db louder? A tenth of a db perhaps?

IF you understand F-M curves, then you'll know it depends on the frequency content of the signal, and how loud it is being presented.

 

[A9X]

Louder sounds louder, not better. Yes yes, Fletcher-Munson Curves are very interesting.

I worded that very badly. What I should have said is that psychoacoustically the louder one will almost always be perceived as "better" by the majority of listeners. Same with brightness on TV's and monitors.
Nothing to do with FM.

 

[pickles]

IF you understand F-M curves, then you'll know it depends on the frequency content of the signal, and how loud it is being presented.

Right. So say you're at a normal demo listening level with a normal bass signal. Its probably about the same effect as breathing on your bass control.

That idea of "louder sounds better" is thrown around here like an axiom. Lets see some proof.

 

[pickles]

I worded that very badly. What I should have said is that psychoacoustically the louder one will almost always be perceived as "better" by the majority of listeners. Same with brightness on TV's and monitors.
Nothing to do with FM.

Where's the proof?

 

[A9X]

Where's the proof?

I'll dig through and find the relevant AES papers (most are hardcopy) and other data related to ABX testing.

 

[greenboy]

Ask any stereo salesman ; }

 

[seamonkey]

Where's the proof?

Interesting article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

I'd love to see some blind testing on amps. It's all in the perception.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Louder generally sounds fuller, with stronger bass and high treble.

 

[KJung]

The thread originator didn't just ask for a comparison of the heads, but also an explanation (or at least a solicitation of opinions) as to why one might sound better. All of this discussion is relevant to that question.

+1... I was more reacting to the 'you have to be an idiot to even ask the question' mentality of a few posters

More pushing back on the unhelpful tone than the content

 

[Dragonlord]

The thread originator didn't just ask for a comparison of the heads, but also an explanation (or at least a solicitation of opinions) as to why one might sound better. All of this discussion is relevant to that question.

Yep. But the post Ken quoted was bit , as by heavier amps I mean older technology versus newer... I really don't know much about the technical details, I just know that there are different amp build methods - some result in heavier and some in lighter amps. There are those that will swear by heavier/older technology power sections, and there are hi-end brands that use them, so I thought it would be an interesting subject (and so far it is, at least to me).

 

[smeet]

The thread originator didn't just ask for a comparison of the heads, but also an explanation (or at least a solicitation of opinions) as to why one might sound better. All of this discussion is relevant to that question.

My experience - I have an Eden WT400 (light), a Trace Elliot AH500X (heavy), and a DB750 (heavy), and (in the past) a GK400RB (light).

I don't know what the reason is, but the Trace and the Aggie just plain blow the Eden and the GK out of the water in terms of low end. No contest at all. I noticed it, and my drummers noticed it (without knowing which one I was plugged into at the time). This was tried through an SWR 410, an Eden 210 XLT, and an Acme low B2.

I can't give you a technical explanation, but the DB750 is a whole world of difference from the Eden in terms of solidity and beef. After playing through the DB750, the WT400 sounds whiney and "transparent" in comparison. It hurts to carry the Aggie, but it's well worth it for me.

 

[Kindness]

+1... I was more reacting to the 'you have to be an idiot to even ask the question' mentality of a few posters

More pushing back on the unhelpful tone than the content

I'm with you. By definition the unhelpful tone is unhelpful!

 

[pickles]

Louder generally sounds fuller, with stronger bass and high treble.

Says who? And by how much at the levels one would A/B bass rigs at, and at the amount of mistaken variance that would exist in such a test.

Anecdotal evidence supporting your claim that all amps really sound the same has no more weight than the vast anecdotal evidence that contradicts it.

 

[pickles]

Interesting article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

I'd love to see some blind testing on amps. It's all in the perception.

That actually has to do with overcompressing tracks to sqeeze the most energy possible into the dynamic range of the media. So in that case its not really "louder" so much as "more compressed" which naturally sounds fuller/thicker and has more impact to a casual listener.

Different issue, and one that I've actually read quite a bit about. Its really a shame since it makes recorded music much less dynamic.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Says who? And by how much at the levels one would A/B bass rigs at, and at the amount of mistaken variance that would exist in such a test.

Here's a possible example of variations in loudness causing variations in persceived sound quality: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3750805&postcount=55

Anecdotal evidence supporting your claim that all amps really sound the same has no more weight than the vast anecdotal evidence that contradicts it.

There are many, many more sighted and biased listening comparisons done than actual double-blind tests, but I wouldn't say the latter are just anecdotal.

 

[pickles]

What I'm saying is anecdotal is the idea that a louder source "sounds better" or "sounds fuller", especially when we're discussing small differences in actual SPL.

 

[seamonkey]

That actually has to do with overcompressing ...

Good point, but to me it's all interrelated, just like optical illusions, there are auditory illusions that fool our ears. Some may fool everyone the same, some may fool only some people part of the time. Some like coloring eggs green may make them unappetizing even though there's no change to the taste. I'll stick with lightweight amps, even if some see them as green eggs.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Sound program material with an even spectral balance at low SPLs tends to sound thin, with little bass and high treble. This is a phenomenon of human hearing. At higher SPLs the auditory system's bass and high treble response improves greatly and the overall frequency response becomes more even.

This characteristic is beyond anecdotal; it's well known enough that many stereos have a "loudness" switch that boosts low and high frequencies at lower volume settings, to compensate for the SPL-based variations in the ear's frequency response.