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Help me solve a band dispute about a recording!

#21
Like the song very much. Nice bass work on your part too!

So ok, I have to agree with @mcarp555 and suggest cutting the chatter off the front too.

And while I'm not particularly enamored with the piano stabs in the first verse myself, I'm not put off by them either.

I'm more concerned with the syncing between the guitar and the bass in the first minute and change. If you're going to double a line you have to be spot on and perfectly in sync with each other. To my ear it feels a little off in a few places time-wise. Especially between 1:02-1:04. There's a noticeable bobble or something going on there that really caught my ear in a not good way.

As to the vocals...yeah...the vocals...

I can't say I really care for the vocal, as recorded, at all. It might work better with a woman's voice doing it that way. But it sorta strikes me as a guy trying to do Etta James or Aretha for some strange reason - and it just doesn't work for me. It's a little too clean, nasal, and snarly for my taste. But that's me. And what do I know anyway? I'm just a bass player. :thumbsup:
 
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#22
I'm not sure how we can solve this issue for you. You guys as a band need to come together and decide/discuss/vote/drink/etc to hash these things out. I'm not sure how effective it would be to say "I spoke to a lot people on an internet bass forum and they agree with me so the piano stays and you have to deal with it" is going to work.

So the real question (to me, anyway) is, how is the singer's attitude? Easy to get along with. Team player? Selfish? Diva? Laid back? Compromises? Headstrong?
 
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#23
I think the biggest issue with the piano to me is the first verse he's hitting the keys too hard or it needs brought down really subtle in the mix.
Then later when he really starts playing it needs brought up a little, it's a little hard to hear imo.

It's great you don't have an ego about it and want to improve and are taking suggestions.

But I don't think the singer shouldt 'demo' it until it's done. And if he does should let them hear the entire song and comment. It's kind of dickish and doesn't help if he says 'hey listen to this song we recorded, but not the beginning cause it sucks'. Immediately that's going to put people off. Let them listen and see if they complain about the first part.
 
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#24
Here's an objective opinion.

1. Singer needs to work more.
2. Drummer needs to tighten up, there were times when he was a little loose, timewise. I think maybe subdividing the beat more on the highhat would do some good. As of right now, the quarter note hi-hat hits are messy.
3. Have either the guitar or bass do something else besides double. Maybe some shaft-wah "chikka-chikkas" or something, the riff is strong, but not strong enough to carry an entire song. The riff can double for some of the song, but not for 2 minutes straight.
4. There's a couple of things you could do with the piano, but hitting hard on 1 would work if everyone else was hitting hard on 1 as well.

*Quick edit
5. On the solo section, flip the piano and bass. Right now you have the piano on the down beat and bass on the upbeats, flip it and you get a nice little reggae-break before straightening back out.
 
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#25
Cool track!! I really dig the guitar riff in the verse! I feel like it'd be really cool to have the keys responding to the vocals' call throughout the first verse rather than striking as the singer begins each line. There's loads of space between each vocal line there and the keys could gradually build the energy as the verse goes on starting with minimal notes, and increasing in complexity as the vocals become more continuous to the end of the verse. I'd also consider stripping the guitar down in the choruses to let the vocals come through more strongly, it (the guitar) sort of wails around a bit there. Then you could match the vocal intensity with more of a riffing keyboard line for the chorus. So the vox and keys would bounce off each other and feed each other through the verses, and come together to increase the energy of the choruses. That's my two cents, anyway. Love your work!

Tom
 
#26
Nothing wrong w/ Keys...but singer....well.....(this may sound bad but I would search for a singer who gives this type of music justice) Please no offense meant.
Just an outside opinion of someone that has been in business a while. But of course it's just my 1-1/2 cent.
 
#27
I would take out the piano in the first verse. I think the stabs on the 1s are fighting with the groove
If someone is in love with those stabs try on the "and" of 1.
If you cut the vocals again make the monitor situation one where the singer has to sing louder to hear himself. It feels like the vocals are sung timidly... Like it was late and you didn't want to anger the neighbors.
Also make sure the rest of the band gets lost when you record the vocals
 
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#28
mr13ump said:
Hey Talkbass! I have something I want to run by you. Recently I got my hands on a mixing board and some recording equipment. It has 8 channels, and so I was really excited about being able to record my whole group in a live setting. We recorded one of our originals, but the piano was pretty muddy so we had to go over it again. Myself, the piano player, and the guitarist went back and we re-recorded the piano part. After I showed what I had mixed to the rest of the band, our singer was saying how he didn't like the piano during the first verse (where he is just playing on the 1). He said it was so opposed to that section that he was going to skip over it when demoing the song to people until we have a better tracking (which I thought was over the top). I was just wondering if I could get your opinions on this, as well as any other part of the song, (composition, playing, mixing). Here is the song, and you are welcome to listen to the other song of ours I have posted on my account, it is not fully finished yet but it is most of the way there.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
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The vocal should be centered, and the guitar definitely shouldn't be; the drums are way too muffled and pushed back in the mix, and the vocal is a bit as well.

The mix is very rough overall, but that's to be expected for a band trying their hand at tracking a song live through an 8 channel mixing board for the first time; no worries.

I'd recommend re-tracking, try using all 8 channels for the kit first and overdub the other parts later; unless you REALLY know what you're doing, it's very difficult to make a drum kit sound big and articulate using only a few mics.

That will also allow your drummer to nail a take; he's losing the groove quite frequently in order to throw in fills, "less is more" definitely applies here.
 
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#29
HawldieMPB said:
OP could even do it live still. You can do drums in 2 mics, bass choose amp or DI, Guitar gets a mic, singer gets a mic Keys get a mic or DI if it's a board. Thats only 6 mics so drums gets another 2 or another and then Piano gets done in stereo hi and low. (so you can hear the solo and the comping). Singer needs a pop filter and you can use your stereo space more. pan that guitar over one way a bit and the keys another.

ALSO, OP: the piano at the beginning just feels like it doesn't need to be there. I think no piano at first (Maybe once through the verse) and then it comes in to up the energy later. Also the player needs to come up with a new part or you need to make room in the mix for the piano to sit differently. THe hits aren't DEAD on and it just weakens that riff in the background which is very cool on its own.
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Trying to get a great, or even OK, drum kit sound using two mics is just an exercise in frustration and futility unless you have a lot of experience; your ability to actually mix the kit using compression and EQ is limited exponentially.
 
#30
mr13ump said:
We were thinking about re recording the vocals before putting it online or anything. He wasn't monitored when he was singing so he couldn't really tell how he sounded, hence the inconsistencies.
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Do that.

He needs a pop filter pretty badly too, you won't be able to mix those plosives out without totally gutting the vocal.

The tune definitely starts to sound bigger in the bridge because you're finally using the stereo space in the left channel where the guitar should have been all along; try keeping the rhythm guitars in the left channel the whole tune, but having the solo center panned works fine.
 
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#31
MDBass said:
Trying to get a great, or even OK, drum kit sound using two mics is just an exercise in frustration and futility unless you have a lot of experience; your ability to actually mix the kit using compression and EQ is limited exponentially.
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This!

Suggestion:

In a small project studio you're often better off using commercial drum loops than real drums since those are already recorded and tuned to perfection using top of the line equipment - and by pros who do it for a living.

That shouldn't exclude your drummer either. Let him learn how to do it and have him do the drum tracks. It's a valuable skill knowing how to use loops with today's music. And there's nothing to say the loops need to appear on your final studio recordings. In a well-equiped studio with an iso booth and a competent engineer/producer, you can record "real" drum performances to your heart's content.
 
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#32
40Hz said:
This!

Suggestion:

In a small project studio you're often better off using commercial drum loops than real drums since those are already recorded and tuned to perfection using top of the line equipment - and by pros who do it for a living.

That shouldn't exclude your drummer either. Let him learn how to do it and have him do the drum tracks. It's a valuable skill to have knowing how to use loops with today's music. And there's nothing to say the loops need to appear on your final studio recordings. In a well-equiped studio with an iso booth and a competent engineer/producer, you can record "real" drum performances to your heart's content.
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+1

A good chunk of the studio work I do is drum programming, and when done well it's totally indistinguishable from a real player; I can't tell you how many "wow, who played on this track/where was this recorded?!" comments I've gotten.

Not at all meant to toot my own horn, there are scores of people much better at it than I am, but to let you know how good the sampling technology is now.

Even major label rock releases occasionally have programmed drums.
 
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#34
MDBass said:
+1

A good chunk of the studio work I do is drum programming, and when done well it's totally indistinguishable from a real player; I can't tell you how many "wow, who played on this track/where was this recorded?!" comments I've gotten.

Not at all meant to toot my own horn, there are scores of guys much better at it than I, but to let you know how good the sampling technology is now.

Even major label rock releases occasionally have programmed drums.
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This is so spot on as to be worth repeating. Done well, it's extremely difficult to impossible to spot a programmed drum score these days. About the only giveaway is that its time accuracy and sonic quality is often so much better than your other tracks that it's noticeable to somebody who has enough experience to spot it if they're actively listening for it.

Again, use loops for your project and band demos. They work.
 
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#35
mr13ump said:
I agree, but I also don't think the singer is just being disagreeable for the sake of it. He is just saying what he feels would make the song sound as good as it can be. That's all I want too, which is why I made this thread!
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You should listen to everyone in the band, but you need not obey everyone in the band. Unless there's someone established as the "band director" or some-such, it sounds like it ought to be your (the composer's) final call as to how the arrangement goes.

If the singer is in position, perhaps not to lead the band, but to audition tracks for others (as seems to be the case), then you might consider agreeing with the singer's suggestion just for the sake of increased visibility on the song itself.

But ultimately it sounds to me like your decision.

For what it's worth, from a random person on the internet, I think that the piano sounds better on the first verse (just playing on the one, as you say) than later in the song. You might consider having the piano chords stab on every beat, but make them clean and staccato. But even beyond that, I personally don't think a piano sounds great in this arrangement in the first place. What would you think of replacing the piano with Hammond organ?
 
#37
I just don't agree with the need for lots of mics on the drums thing. A lot the drums on Led Zep IV were recorded with one mic up high, as are tons of Beatles, Stones, Reggae, QOTSA and lots of stoner rock, and the baddest of the bad jazz drummers like Elvin and Philly Joe. Any one of these style drum sounds would suit this track. One mic in front, pointed at the kick and snare, and the height of it will determine how much of the cymbals you get. Run it through a fat vintage style compressor and kaboom.
 

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