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Help me solve a band dispute about a recording!

#61
flojob said:
I do think the keys could be made better use of rhythmically.
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I thought exactly the same thing. The rest of the tune is funky and syncopated so the whole-note block chords seem kind of clunky to me in comparison.

The drummer needs to watch his time when he plays fills (and you need to help him stay on the one as he comes out of them). As others stated, the vocals could stand some compression, and the singer some mic technique. As someone else stated, it might be nice to double the guitar and bass for only a small section or sections of the song so it doesn't get monotonous. I'm not trying to attack the performance, just making arranging suggestions that might help bring out something you guys hadn't thought of. Since you've asked us to play back-seat producer, this is pretty much what a producer would do; make suggestions that help to bring out the best in your band's performance of the song.

Some of the sounds are a bit rough, but the equipment is new to you and learning micing techniques, and recording techniques in general, takes a long time. Considering this was done right out of the gate with little experience and brand new gear, it sounds pretty good. It's a cool tune with a lot of potential. Use your new recording gear to record every rehearsal and you'll learn a lot very quickly. Try recording the same instrument with different mics or with the mic in different locations. Pay attention to what differences these subtleties make. A person could spend ages just exploring the different ways you can mic a piano. The same holds true for guitar amps. There's so much to explore, and I've only just touched on micing! EQ is a whole other learning curve in and of itself, and that's still before we even get to any outboard processing like compression, reverbs, gates or delays. Multitrack recording (or recording multiple tracks to stereo) isn't something you learn overnight. It's a lot of trial and error, a lot of reading everything you can get your hands on, a lot of jumping at any opportunity to work with people better than you that you can learn from, a lot of doing things wrong and learning from them. Just keep doing it and you'll start to hear the answers to your questions, if you know what I mean. You're already on the right track.
 
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#63
two fingers said:
Ironically, my least favorite part of that recording is the vocals. Half of it sounds like he is pinching his nose while singing.

The piano is so subtle throughout the whole thing (at least through the 2nd verse which is as far as I listened) I find it hard to believe he would either pitch the song or not based on that alone anyway.
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I agree with this
 
#64
Dont take it the wrong way but by your post it seems you have bigger issues then this song. Not pointing fingers at any member or their performance thats not the point here. it sounds like you guys are having the typical decision making and bickering most bands always do. Its all fun at first and then you actually start sounding good at what you are making the things slowly start becoming critical. Even down to one single note or beat or the way a lyric is enunciated. when you started for the first time, and for a while it was fun wasnt it? Sure it was and kinda still is isnt it. I have seen it and experienced it many times. Its a total group effort of give and take and most importantly FUN. Jam out, Rock out whatever you wanna call it but if you guys take the fun out of it whats the point?
 
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#66
MDBass said:
Trying to get a great, or even OK, drum kit sound using two mics is just an exercise in frustration and futility unless you have a lot of experience; your ability to actually mix the kit using compression and EQ is limited exponentially.
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Perhaps, but its entirely possible with some research and trial and error. I am speaking from experience. Also, my point was not that OP SHOULD use two mics on drums but that it COULD BE done and that would leave OP two mic slots to play with (perhaps to use on drums). Just pointing out that good recordings can be made simply. Also I saw that you mentioned focusing on drum replacement or a beat machine might be advisable: IMO learning advanced drum replacement good enough to flow with the drummer's style and the band's style is a misuse of time. First learn how to record something well, THEN learn how to spruce it up in post. Someday you will want to record a live set and you don't want to start learning that day. Drum replacement is extremely prevalent these days but most of the people doing it already know how to engineer or are mixers only. OP is trying to learn the ropes, don't divert them so soon.
 
#68
For me, the piano doesn't add much as it sounds like it's playing another song and totally different style. The droning quarter note chords make it sound more like a metronome. So I agree with the singer.

So I was toying around with my keyboard and I would add counter-melody and syncopated (jazz) chords to fill out the doubling guitar and bass.
  • Verse: Am9 Cmaj9 D9 (for some reason I love 9th chords). Ideally, the left-hand shouldn't be in your bass sonic range, but if done carefully it would just accentuate the chords and not interfere with the riff.
  • Prechorus: sustain the chords on left hand, maybe add high-octave chord (or dyad) stabs.
  • Chorus: D7 Fmaj7 C
  • Interlude: I would drop the high-octave arppegios and whatever at the beginning. I can understand the reasoning for having some movement and extending the sonic-range, it just sounds too "classical music."
  • Final chorus: accentuate vocalist's rhythm by syncing chords to it.

I also agree with trying out different keyboard sounds.
 
#69
HawldieMPB said:
Perhaps, but its entirely possible with some research and trial and error. I am speaking from experience. Also, my point was not that OP SHOULD use two mics on drums but that it COULD BE done and that would leave OP two mic slots to play with (perhaps to use on drums). Just pointing out that good recordings can be made simply. Also I saw that you mentioned focusing on drum replacement or a beat machine might be advisable: IMO learning advanced drum replacement good enough to flow with the drummer's style and the band's style is a misuse of time. First learn how to record something well, THEN learn how to spruce it up in post. Someday you will want to record a live set and you don't want to start learning that day. Drum replacement is extremely prevalent these days but most of the people doing it already know how to engineer or are mixers only. OP is trying to learn the ropes, don't divert them so soon.
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Of course getting a good kit sound with limited mics is possible with trial and error, but if he already has the microphones and the inputs there's no reason to not focus on how to properly mix a fully mic'ed kit now instead of later.

Even in a live club setting, unless it's a really small place and only the kick is mic'ed, you usually have kick/snare/hi-hat/toms/overheads.

I really don't disagree with anything you've said here aside from the bit about programming, and I never meant to suggest should learn how to program instead of learning how to get a good kit sound; it's just an incredibly useful skill to have these days, both for writing (if the drummer or anyone else has a groove idea, they don't have to wait to track it live in order to share it) and for sample reinforcement/replacement at the advanced level.
 
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#70
the song reminds me of old savoy brown, which i really like, and the singer's voice is just right for that.

that being said, the singer has some issues (going off key or off tempo). the piano is muddy and indistinct as are the drums, at least on my computer, and there are a couple parts where everyone need to decide what they're doing. there are some odd cymbal moments, too. still, if you guys would tighten the song up and practice it a bit more and then re-record it with a little less mud, i'd buy it. and if you look through my posts here, i never say that.
 
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#71
pcake said:
still, if you guys would tighten the song up and practice it a bit more and then re-record it with a little less mud, i'd buy it. and if you look through my posts here, i never say that.
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Why buy it when we already have the demo? I'm going to put it on Napster. Wait....

I, too, like the song as I listened to it a bunch of times figuring it out. I do like the singer's voice, it's unique and has passion. Drums could be louder and tighter, I would prefer it to be more stereo-ized. Guitar should be panned so I can hear the bass better.

And I, too, agree on re-recording it as many times as possible. Experiment. Learn. Have fun with it. And sell it to us later because I'm pretty sure no one uses Napster anymore. At least I don't.
 
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#73
Piano is not distracting to me.

In general, I would say the vocals are interesting, but very monotonous for the first two minutes or so. That could be a cool effect, but not as long as the guitar and the bass are also playing the same thing.

Not sure if this has been asked before, but wouldn't the drums benefit from playing sixteen-notes on the hi-hat? Maybe with a more noticable downbeat on the eights or something, but I think that would probably be worth trying out. Which is what recording is all about for most bands, trying out different takes (no pun intended) on the same song idea, and hopefully agreeing on what sounds best.
 
#74
I like the song and I you did a great job on the recording considering it's a trade you're just starting to learn.

I actually do not like the piano lagging behind and can sympathise with the singer. The part is ok, but if it is this simple it should serve the groove and should push the song a bit more, you can't do that if you're falling after the beat almost all the time. It's not a matter of changing the piano pattern, he needs to be in that pocket. I feel the whole band needs to tighten up a bit too. Some rhytmic changes might help, as people have suggested, but to me it sounds like you guys need to do some more training miles together to get everything spot on. This is a groove that needs everything to fall together exactly right to make it work.

My guess is not everyone is hearing their own rhytmic role in relation to all the other instruments. I would take some time to practise the song in pairs: just piano and drums, just guitar and bass, just drum and guitar, piano and singer, and so on, until they sound good in just that combination. (I think bass and drums are locking just fine).
 
#75
mr13ump said:
Hey Talkbass! I have something I want to run by you. Recently I got my hands on a mixing board and some recording equipment. It has 8 channels, and so I was really excited about being able to record my whole group in a live setting. We recorded one of our originals, but the piano was pretty muddy so we had to go over it again. Myself, the piano player, and the guitarist went back and we re-recorded the piano part. After I showed what I had mixed to the rest of the band, our singer was saying how he didn't like the piano during the first verse (where he is just playing on the 1). He said it was so opposed to that section that he was going to skip over it when demoing the song to people until we have a better tracking (which I thought was over the top). I was just wondering if I could get your opinions on this, as well as any other part of the song, (composition, playing, mixing). Here is the song, and you are welcome to listen to the other song of ours I have posted on my account, it is not fully finished yet but it is most of the way there.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
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To me the guitar sounds to tentative-doesn't groove.
The drummer needs some work too, I recon.
Piano... I just think the part is boring-he could voice he chord a little differently to make it more interesting.
I think the voice is quite interesting.
On the whole It my be a little slow maybe?
I'd give it a bit of work before going public.
This recording as is doesn't cut it for me.

The song is ok I recon. Just needs some work.
I think the mix is ok.
 
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#77
mr13ump said:
I wrote the entire song, music and lyrics. I also own all of the recording equipment and mixed everything. If anyone on earth has a claim to this song it is definitely me. I still think though, that if you bring a song like this to a band you are acknowledging that you value their input and opinions and they should have some say in the creative product.
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You're right but I would tread lightly with this line of thinking. You took it to the band for their creative input. If you want it played exactly a certain way then you need to hire a band to play it that way. Otherwise get a consensus about what yall think sounds good. Once a decision is made then everyone needs to be on board, even your singer.
 
#78
I too like the vocals. they have style. Piano needs some Thelonius Monk style Dissonance and punctuation, not just floating along. Drums need to be more dry, they sound like they are in an office down the hall, but I like the quirky simple country beat. Is this a newish drummer or someone with experience? Cymbals are out of phase distorted...I get a good drum sound with 2 Piezo phase cancelling mics and a single mic for snare high hat. and a room sound similar to the band. I cant quite tell what kind of room the vocal is in, maybe it's too dank/smalroom reverbie. The main riff is a bit busy, but that's fun...the song slows down because of it though! Practice with a metronome! Do it! What is the part where the main riff is just smoothed out...that's lazy songwriting... I like the meandering guitar and other off beat aspects of the band, the song is a mess, chorus and chorus extensions just seem stuck on generic, could be anything, but maybe you should keep it messy and Southern. It's like a tangle of vegetation in high humidity.
 
#79
mr13ump said:
I agree, but I also don't think the singer is just being disagreeable for the sake of it. He is just saying what he feels would make the song sound as good as it can be. That's all I want too, which is why I made this thread!
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He is definitely not being disagreeable to be disagreeable. He is being disagreeable because all somewhat inexperienced players treat recordings like it's a bar of gold and they are faithfully recreating a unicorn. Well, 90% of them, myself included when I started.

It happens, and people's points about a producer are exactly right. That said, is this a demo? One of the best things you have is you tracked a 'scratch' track and everyone can go back and redo their parts. Typically what I do most of the times anyways.

The piano part itself, if that is the part, that is where you are in time. Which is all a recording is, a snapshot of time. If no one wants to redo parts, no need to, that is the reality of where you are at. If the keys guy gets inspiration before it's time to release, at least you got the tools.

Without saying too much else, give him his own shot to redo everything up to everyone's (more importantly his) standards. Less finger pointing verbally will help to get a better performance and just say 'just give it a shot and see how it sounds'.

Even if he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about ;)
 

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