Double Bass Help me understand slash chords better

[PauFerro]

There are tunes where it makes sense for the bass player to play a non-root or fifth note under a chord. For example, consider My Funny Valentine below:

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In the first five bars, it makes sense for the bass to go like this below (I put bass notes under every chord just for clarity, even though it's not normally done for Ab/Ab for example)....

C-7/C C-(maj7)/B C-7/Bb C6/A Ab/Ab

In this case, there is a clear run that lands on the Ab chord's root. The root motion seems to justify the use of these notes - -which, incidentally, are not depicted as slash chords, oddly enough.

But enter this tune...

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There is one chord Bbmaj7b5/A in the third bar of the melody. Why not just call it Fmaj7? That's a much simpler way of representing the harmonic structure of those two bars. Same with the G/A, F/G and A7/E in the B section. Why not call it G9, F9 and A7 only?

The D and D/C in the head makes sense because it creates a run-down to the Bbmaj7 in the first ending of the A section. And the G/B makes sense at the end of the A section 2nd ending because it too represents a clear landing point for for the D, and C run-downward that precedes it.

I am not criticizing or ranting here. Simply trying to understanding slash chords better. Further, I notice one of the guys in my band with REALLY GOOD EARS always calls me out when I play thirds over certain chords.

Are there rules or situations where slash chords work, and where they don't?

 

[Carl Hillman]

The reason that chord doesn't make sense is because it's wrong. That should simply be a Bbmaj7#11.

The early Real Books are notorious for errors.

The only "rules" I am aware of when notating a particular sound, is: write it so that it accurately represents what notes you want played and suggests your preferred voicing, and pick the way to write it that is easiest to read.

 

[notabene]

There is one chord Bbmaj7b5/A in the third bar of the melody. Why not just call it Fmaj7?

Some "slash" chords are voicing specific, with a distinct character, especially if they last a while. The bass note needs, in these cases, to be as specified, at least on the initial strong beat. This is fundamentally a different circumstance than the "Funny Valentine" where the bass notes are following a line. The G/F is another example of a voicing specific distinct sound which is static enough despite the tempo to need the chord not to be translated to a "simpler" notation.

Steven

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

The reason that chord doesn't make sense is because it's wrong. That should simply be a Bbmaj7#11.

Pat Metheny uses Bbma7(b5)/A in his Pat Metheny Songbook. It's not a Fma7, as there is no F in the chord. It functions as a Bb chord, even if it's an A in the bass. (Jaco and Richard Bona both play mainly Bb, but sometimes A).

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

T Same with the G/A, F/G and A7/E in the B section. Why not call it G9, F9 and A7 only?

G/A and F/G is not the same as G9 and F9.

 

[PauFerro]

There is one chord Bbmaj7b5/A in the third bar of the melody. Why not just call it Fmaj7?

Some "slash" chords are voicing specific, with a distinct character, especially if they last a while. The bass note needs, in these cases, to be as specified, at least on the initial strong beat. This is fundamentally a different circumstance than the "Funny Valentine" where the bass notes are following a line. The G/F is another example of a voicing specific distinct sound which is static enough despite the tempo to need the chord not to be translated to a "simpler" notation.

Steven

G/A and F/G is not the same as G9 and F9.

Why not? Isn't the 9th simply the 2nd note in the scale, played on top?

 

[PauFerro]

Pat Metheny uses Bbma7(b5)/A in his Pat Metheny Songbook. It's not a Fma7, as there is no F in the chord. It functions as a Bb chord, even if it's an A in the bass. (Jaco and Richard Bona both play mainly Bb, but sometimes A).

I would like to argue that the flatted 5 in Bbmaj7(b5) is simply the 7th of the Fmaj7th chord. My understanding is that for a chord to work, you simply have to have a critical number of function tones in it (root, third, fifth, 7th) for the chord to sound right. In the case of Bbmaj7(b5)/A you have the third of fMAJ7, (A), the maj7 (E). If you play the F, it probably sounds right with the Bbmaj7(b5) because the A and E are there.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Yes, the flat 5 can be the 7th of a Fma7 chord, but there's still no F in the chord here (and an E in the melody), so no Fma7. And, it functions as a Bb chord. (Or maybe meant as an A7sus(b9)).

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Why not? Isn't the 9th simply the 2nd note in the scale, played on top?

Yes, but no. If it's written G9, it also includes the (minor) 7th by default: G-B-D-F-A. Gadd9 is G-B-D-A. Here, the A in the bass is vital for the function of the chord.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Pat Metheny uses Bbma7(b5)/A in his Pat Metheny Songbook. It's not a Fma7, as there is no F in the chord. It functions as a Bb chord, even if it's an A in the bass. (Jaco and Richard Bona both play mainly Bb, but sometimes A).

Interesting! I guess he would know, since he wrote it.

... but that raises the question, why did he allow his own song to be recorded with the second chord "wrong"? (i.e. Bbmaj7b5 instead of Bbmaj7b5/A)

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Interesting! I guess he would know, since he wrote it.

... but that raises the question, why did he record his own song with the second chord "wrong" (i.e. Bbmaj7#11)

I have only heard it with Jaco and Richard Bona. Both plays mainly Bb, but sometimes A. It may have been meant as a A7sus(b9), I'm not sure. It may look like he's playing (open) A, (open) D, Bb (on G string), E on the video with Bona and Sanchez.

 

[paulears]

It n' be FMa7 as there isn't just no F, but there's also a D and an E and no C? BbMa7, with a flat 5 moves the F down to the E? I don't quite get where this F chord comes from?

 

[JRA]

i would agree with those who expect to see the chord notation as 'directing' the intent of the writer/arranger: e.g., F9 isn't the same as F/G in the first place, but 'directing' the players (or the bass) to put that G under the F chord makes all the difference in the world. F9 may allow for some interpretation or decision making...F/G is pretty clear.

 

[PauFerro]

i would agree with those who expect to see the chord notation as 'directing' the intent of the writer/arranger: e.g., F9 isn't the same as F/G in the first place, but 'directing' the players (or the bass) to put that G under the F chord makes all the difference in the world. F9 may allow for some interpretation or decision making...F/G is pretty clear.

With how complex this is, I wonder if we have to simply trust the slash chord as something the composer TESTED before he published the sheet music. There may be a host of reasons why such slash chords work. Whether you, as a composer, put that slash chord into the music is a result of whether it fit the tune when you composed it.

 

[krfoss]

Yes, but no. If it's written G9, it also includes the (minor) 7th by default: G-B-D-F-A. Gadd9 is G-B-D-A. Here, the A in the bass is vital for the function of the chord.

Is the minor 7th in there by default because it's a jazz tune, therefore assumed to make the chord, well, jazzy? Otherwise, why not with G7add9?

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Is the minor 7th in there by default because it's a jazz tune, therefore assumed to make the chord, well, jazzy? Otherwise, why not with G7add9?

That is standard notation. G9 means the 7th is included (G11 means the 7th and 9th is included, G13 means the 7th, 9th and 11th is included (though, the 11th is usually omitted)). There is no need to write G7add9, G9 means the same. Gadd9 means a simple G triad with an added 9th, no 7th.

 

[JRA]

Whether you, as a composer, put that slash chord into the music is a result of whether it fit the tune when you composed it.

i'm using "intent" rather than "fit" because the writer knows the difference. other arrangers/players may take liberties with any tune, but the original "intent" is a basis for those liberties.

That is standard notation. G9 means the 7th is included (G11 means the 7th and 9th is included, G13 means the 7th, 9th and 11th is included (Though, the 11th is usually omitted). There is no need to write G7add9, G9 means the same. Gadd9 means a simple G triad with an added 9th, no 7th.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

"[...] there was a certain sence of harmonic ambiguity and [...] a lack of fear about major triads".

 

[Groove Doctor]

There is one chord Bbmaj7b5/A in the third bar of the melody. Why not just call it Fmaj7? That's a much simpler way of representing the harmonic structure of those two bars. Same with the G/A, F/G and A7/E in the B section. Why not call it G9, F9 and A7 only?

Bbmaj7b5/A = A Fb (E) Bb D
Fmaj7 = F A C E
Very different.

Asus(add b9) = A C## (D) E Bb - is probably correct, but a really weird way of writing it. I can hear and understand Bbmaj7b5/A when I read it.

The progression of IV - bVI - I is rather pleasant. (Gmaj7 - Bbmaj7b5/A - D). The embellishments are Pats unique flavour to that basic progression.

The other chords G/A, F/G & A7/E have their own very distinct flavour IME, and best left as written.

 

[PauFerro]

Bbmaj7b5/A = A Fb (E) Bb D
Fmaj7 = F A C E
Very different.

Asus(add b9) = A C## (D) E Bb - is probably correct, but a really weird way of writing it. I can hear and understand Bbmaj7b5/A when I read it.

The progression of IV - bVI - I is rather pleasant. (Gmaj7 - Bbmaj7b5/A - D). The embellishments are Pats unique flavour to that basic progression.

The other chords G/A, F/G & A7/E have their own very distinct flavour IME, and best left as written.

I'm seeing how the Bbmaj7b5 thing is not F (a guitar player told me that is how he would solo over it -- using an Fmajor scale). I guess I overrated the E as the maj7th of F, and the A as the third of F. Plus, this guitar player's intent was to provide structure for soloing, not to redefine the harmonic structure of the song for the rhythm section.

I'm still not seeing rules, though, or an overarching principle for when to use slash chords and when not to. It sounds like an area that may not be well understood in musicians' consciousness. I think we can say that just about anyone knows why D Dorian works over D-7. Or why a scalar bass walkdown works (like in My Funny Valentine above). But why certain slash chords seem to fit in certain places, and not others, is still a bit of a mystery to me.

I think a slash chord where the bass note fits with the melody might be a track to explore...but for now, it sounds like it's something people hear through experimentation. It wouldn't surprise me if the correct bass note choice is a result of synergies with the chord, the melody, and the bass note choice itself.