Double Bass Help me understand slash chords better

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I'm still not seeing rules, though, or an overarching principle for when to use slash chords and when not to. It sounds like an area that may not be well understood in musicians' consciousness. I think we can say that just about anyone knows why D Dorian works over D-7. Or why a scalar bass walkdown works (like in My Funny Valentine above). But why certain slash chords seem to fit in certain places, and not others, is still a bit of a mystery to me.

I think a slash chord where the bass note fits with the melody might be a track to explore...but for now, it sounds like it's something people hear through experimentation. It wouldn't surprise me if the correct bass note choice is a result of synergies with the chord, the melody, and the bass note choice itself.

The rules (if there are any) are dependant of style and the composers intent. In the case of Metheny, he stated in another interview that he thought of many of his compositions like they had a static upper structure (the main chord), and a moving bassline under, "creating an open and ambigious sound" or something like that.

 

[lz4005]

I'm still not seeing rules, though, or an overarching principle for when to use slash chords and when not to.

If there's the option of using either slash notation or a non-slash name for the same set of notes the one the composer chooses indicates which inversion they want used. It's as simple as that.

 

[IamGroot]

What about the Slash chords in GnR songs?

 

[Don Kasper]

The other chords G/A, F/G & A7/E have their own very distinct flavour IME, and best left as written.

C'mon, boys. G/A is an A7,9sus...F/G is a G7,9sus...A7/E is an Emi6. There is NO reason to write these types of chords in such NON-Analytic (Paint-By-Number...) ways.
G/A ignores and obscures the Function of the chord, which is an "A" chord that can (and should) be named with a great deal of exactitude and specificity. G/A is for someone who just wants to know "what buttons to press...", not someone who understands (or wants to understand) Harmony.
Most "slash-chords" introduce unnecessary layers of ambiguity and inexactitude(?) that require the user to "decode" and "do the (harmonic) math" to really understand what the chord's gravitational and functional "pull" might be.
A good example of a useful "slash-chord" is "Gadd2/B"...That makes sense. Or, "Gmaj9/B" - both names suggests a specific set of notes for the voicing that will best be supported by the Bass Note of "B".
I always like to provide as much Harmonic Functionality(tm) in a chord name whenever possible.
Ex. - the first chord of "Maiden Voyage" I call D7,9,13sus. Not - Am7/D, not C/D, not Cmaj7/D, etc.
But thats me...
Thanks.

 

[Don Kasper]

What about the Slash chords in GnR songs?

No Thirds or Sevenths! Just Roots and Fifths!!!
Welcome to the Jungle!
Thanks.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

G/A is for someone who just wants to know "what buttons to press...", not someone who understands (or wants to understand) Harmony.

Tell that to Pat Metheny.

 

[theinfamous]

I'm sure people have mentioned it, but the reason chords are notated in that way is because they are inversions. That means a different note is in the bass, but the chord functions as the main name of the chord- for example, if it's a G/F, that's a G with an F in the bass, so its going to be a G dominant 7. (it should be G7/F really) so the chord itself is named according to function, (in this case, dominant seventh) and the "slash" part simply indicates the note in the bottom of the chord- a preference for a voicing rather than function of the chord. Putting a seventh in the bass is unusual, but not uncommon, if that makes sense. The point I'm trying to make is that chord should always be named according to its function, rather than the note present at the bottom of the chord.

 

[Don Kasper]

Tell that to Pat Metheny.

Sure! What's his number?
Thanks.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Sure! What's his number?
Thanks.

Try 617 254 0007.

Pat Metheny : Contact Us

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I always like to provide as much Harmonic Functionality(tm) in a chord name whenever possible.

Joking aside: I agree. The function of the chord is vital for understanding what to play.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

In the case of Bright Size Life, both Jaco and Richard Bona plays the bridge more like:

A9sus - / - G9sus - / - Emi7 - A7 - Dma7 - /

 

[theinfamous]

When inversions are used, sometimes it is because it's a chord that is borrowed from another key (borrowed chords) that don't strictly fit within the overall key of the song, but make it more interesting harmonically.

So let's say you're in F major. A g chord in the key would be spelled G,Bb,D, providing a g minor chord. (Normally functioning as a ii) However, the composer may intend to resolve to a C major chord, in which case he will "borrow" the G dominant 7 from C major (so the G dominant 7 becomes a V7/V) and resolve from there, since that is a stronger resolution. (dependent of course on the melody) So the reason the composer may have chosen to put the F note in the bass is because there is a G note present in the melody, and it's a good idea to keep those dissonant tones farther apart.

 

[theinfamous]

It's important to note that the slash in a V7/V means, a five seven in the five of the key, so in C major, that's D dominant 7- G major being the V of C major. It is confusing and simple at the same time. Roman numerals mean FUNCTION of the particular chord, and naming the chord as a letter name is a different system.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Most of you are locked into a traditional perspective of (stacks of thirds) harmony. So a lot might not see through that.

There are two kinds of slash chords, those with a non-root note in the bass (what you might have seen the most) and those which have the root note in the bass. Some chords might even work one of both ways, depending how they are used between other chords.

In most traditional jazz tunes, the slash chords are used to show the progression of a bass line. In this case the bass note is usually a chord note and not the root note. It might be possible that it is not even a chord note, but at least part of the scale notes that could be used to build a full chord. As long as the (upper) chord root is percepted as the root of the chord you have an inversion (of the full chord).

But there are other uses of slash chords where the bass note is (always!) the root of the chord. Note that a chord is a selection of scale tones, not necessarily a root-based stack of thirds. You need to understand that to break out of that traditional stack of third harmony thinking. A slash chord with the root in the bass is a chord where some selected notes form a triad (because of harmonic resonance that keep them as a unit) and another (in the bass) is not part of that kind of stack of thirds building from the upper chord (otherwise you are in the first category).

Here the chord progression of my all slash chords piece Circular:
||: G/C | ./. | F/Eb | ./. | F#/D | ./. | G/Ab | ./. | A/G | ./. | Bb/E | ./. |
Cb/Bb | ./. | C#/A | ./. | D/F | ./. | B/C# | ./. | Bb/Gb | ./. | Ab/B | ./. :||

The first is close to a stack of thirds chord but misses the third, the seconds uses an inversion but without a progression of the bass line (jumps into it), the third could have been notated as a #5 maj7, but in between the other slash chords it does not make much sense to do that.
If you dislike the Cb, try to find the scales that run over these chords (hint the melody on A/G has a D#, so it is not what you might normally expect there). And maybe you find out why I have called it Circular.

You can discuss weather the following chords are just stack of thirds chords with a missing note or an inversion, but first play that and try to hear where the chord root is (bass note or upper chord root).
I have a melody and scales for that piece and even made a Latin-oriented big band arrangement out of it.
The bass is mostly octaves, around fifths and sevenths, so no walking bass as the root note needs to be always present to show the root (otherwise the upper chord takes over).

Some of that might get discussed partly as part of my work in progress about scales and chords. Similar universe what IamGroot discussed here further, just from the other side (not stripping down from the maximum but building up from the minimum.
Unfortunately I did had time during the last year to continue my work on it and it doesn't seem to get better during the next few months. Maybe I find some time around Christmas...

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Most of you are locked into a traditional perspective of (stacks of thirds) harmony. So a lot might not see through that.

There are two kinds of slash chords, those with a non-root note in the bass (what you might have seen the most) and those which have the root note in the bass. Some chords might even work one of both ways, depending how they are used between other chords.

Well, the samples provided in the discussion so far have been in a "traditional stack of thirds harmony". It's not that we don't know other perspectives, we're just using the relevant perspective here. Your generalisation is useless.

I guess you mean "non-chord note and chord note in the bass", not "non-root note and root note in the bass"? If the root is in the bass, there is no need for a slash.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I'm seeing how the Bbmaj7b5 thing is not F (a guitar player told me that is how he would solo over it -- using an Fmajor scale).

Bb Lydian (= same notes as Fmaj scale)
= Bb C D E F G A Bb
The Bbmaj7b5/A notes are in bold.

But why certain slash chords seem to fit in certain places, and not others, is still a bit of a mystery to me.

Its much looser than people think - any chord chart is merely a rough approximation of the what the composer created.

Do a detailed study of a bunch of fully notated piano parts and you'll find an astonishing range of note choices, voicings, inversions, etc. Play thru them yourself on piano (or guitar) and they'll make heaps more sense.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

There is no b5maj7 chord. What you mean and what you showed by the scale is a maj7 #11. And that is not the same thing, because a b5 means there is no natural 5. But in your example there is a natural 5 too.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Well, the samples provided in the discussion so far have been in a "traditional stack of thirds harmony". It's not that we don't know other perspectives, we're just using the relevant perspective here. Your generalisation is useless.

I guess you mean "non-chord note and chord note in the bass", not "non-root note and root note in the bass"? If the root is in the bass, there is no need for a slash.

My point of view is anything else the useless. Maybe useless for you because you have your own perspective that, in my eyes, is a bit limited. Or you define a slash chord different than me.

I have done a lot of transcriptions of piece that use slash chords with the root of the chord lying in the bass note. It is not too common and not used in the great American jazz tradition (except if one player is able to put some of them in).
Analyse some earlier Jan Garbarek tunes, i.e. Places.

You can notate that without a slash with a lot of of "alterations" (there is nothing altered in the scale, it is just very different from a major scale). So a slash chord might be easier to read or it shows what voicing should be used (as in my example) which was explained by others here too.
OK in a full chord (6 to 8 notes, depending on the scale) every slash chord could be seen as an inversion, but how much sense does it make to see a b13 in the bass if it is not part of a linear movement of bass notes? And specially if you hear this note as the root of the chord.
I know that my perspective on slash chords is correct as I discuss this with composers and advanced theory knowledgable jazz musicians. I know that this is not accepted by a lot of people, but this is often the case with new stuff (and I don't think my perspective is real new, just a bit more analytical).

In my big band arrangement I wrote the slash chords for all accompanying chord instruments, but for the solo parts I also wrote full stack of thirds chords for those who can work better with that. It is more that most people are not used to analyses scales from slash chord notation, so it might be some help to see that in a more traditional manner, but to see through all these many "alterations" might take too much time. BTW, I also add a scale notation to the root/bass note to show what scale could/should be used. So G/Ab hMaj VI means the structure of the sixth mode of harmonic major starting from Ab. If the chord root would be the root of the upper chord I would notate the scale before the slash.

Like it or not, this is an effective notation for scales if you want to fix them. If not, it would even be a starting point for the typical scale that would get used there. Since slash chords are not full chords, there are several other possible scales (usually). But different ones than you would use with a three or four note stack of third notation.

I was prepared for some discussion here, but not for ignoring it and declaring it as totally unrelevant.
I am happy to discuss, but only if people do their homework first.

 

[theinfamous]

Most of you are locked into a traditional perspective of (stacks of thirds) harmony. So a lot might not see through that.

There are two kinds of slash chords, those with a non-root note in the bass (what you might have seen the most) and those which have the root note in the bass. Some chords might even work one of both ways, depending how they are used between other chords.

In most traditional jazz tunes, the slash chords are used to show the progression of a bass line. In this case the bass note is usually a chord note and not the root note. It might be possible that it is not even a chord note, but at least part of the scale notes that could be used to build a full chord. As long as the (upper) chord root is percepted as the root of the chord you have an inversion (of the full chord).

But there are other uses of slash chords where the bass note is (always!) the root of the chord. Note that a chord is a selection of scale tones, not necessarily a root-based stack of thirds. You need to understand that to break out of that traditional stack of third harmony thinking. A slash chord with the root in the bass is a chord where some selected notes form a triad (because of harmonic resonance that keep them as a unit) and another (in the bass) is not part of that kind of stack of thirds building from the upper chord (otherwise you are in the first category).

Here the chord progression of my all slash chords piece Circular:
||: G/C | ./. | F/Eb | ./. | F#/D | ./. | G/Ab | ./. | A/G | ./. | Bb/E | ./. |
Cb/Bb | ./. | C#/A | ./. | D/F | ./. | B/C# | ./. | Bb/Gb | ./. | Ab/B | ./. :||

The first is close to a stack of thirds chord but misses the third, the seconds uses an inversion but without a progression of the bass line (jumps into it), the third could have been notated as a #5 maj7, but in between the other slash chords it does not make much sense to do that.
If you dislike the Cb, try to find the scales that run over these chords (hint the melody on A/G has a D#, so it is not what you might normally expect there). And maybe you find out why I have called it Circular.

You can discuss weather the following chords are just stack of thirds chords with a missing note or an inversion, but first play that and try to hear where the chord root is (bass note or upper chord root).
I have a melody and scales for that piece and even made a Latin-oriented big band arrangement out of it.
The bass is mostly octaves, around fifths and sevenths, so no walking bass as the root note needs to be always present to show the root (otherwise the upper chord takes over).

Some of that might get discussed partly as part of my work in progress about scales and chords. Similar universe what IamGroot discussed here further, just from the other side (not stripping down from the maximum but building up from the minimum.
Unfortunately I did had time during the last year to continue my work on it and it doesn't seem to get better during the next few months. Maybe I find some time around Christmas...

I'm not sure what you mean by "breaking out of the stack of thirds thinking." It seems to me like you're making things more complicated by trying to make shortcuts and simplify the language.

For most popular and jazz music, referring to chords and progressions in a traditional way is the easiest and most comprehensible way, because so much of western music is based around a strong tonic/dominant relationship, and harmony that is, like it or not, largely defined around thirds.

 

[Don Kasper]

G/Ab

I'm having difficulty understanding the rationale for your system. FYI.
G/Ab (Gmaj triad over an Ab in the bass.) Sounds like Abdim,maj7 to me. No need to Slash, IMO/IME.