Double Bass Help me understand slash chords better

[Don Kasper]

Ab/Bb

??? Am I understanding your nomenclature and note placement?
An "AbMaj triad /Bb in the bass" is most likely functioning as a Bb7,9,sus4 chord.
I think it's over-complicated to name, think of (and HEAR) this as a "Cmin7, #5 chord in 3rd inversion".
But that's me...

 

[DaveAceofBass]

There is one chord Bbmaj7b5/A in the third bar of the melody. Why not just call it Fmaj7? That's a much simpler way of representing the harmonic structure of those two bars. Same with the G/A, F/G and A7/E in the B section. Why not call it G9, F9 and A7 only?

Are there rules or situations where slash chords work, and where they don't?

The Bbmaj7b5/A is not the same notes as an Fmaj7. By placing the A in the bass you create an added tension of a flat 9 interval, which is obviously what the composer wanted...although normally you’d want to try to avoid that dissonance.

The A7/E is simply an inversion if the A7. If they wrote A7 the bass player would likely play an A, and that won’t give the same sound.

G/A and F/G is another way of writing a Sus4 chord. For example, an A7sus4 is A D E G, the G over A essentially is the same but adds the ninth in an takes out the E (you can still play it though) A D G B. When I see those slash chords I think Sus4, although there is a slight difference, they essentially work the same way.

Be careful not to confuse slash chords with polychords. Usually polychords have a horizontal line instead of a slash, but that notation is not as widely used. Some composers will still use it...with polychords there may be two different triads or 7th chords stacked on top of each other. Again, this is another type of harmonic language that is used by more advanced jazz players.

 

[Don Kasper]

But enter this tune...

Link Removed

What fake book is this chart from? Is it from one of the Real Books? (It sure smells that way.)
Thanks.

 

[Carl Hillman]

What fake book is this chart from? Is it from one of the Real Books? (It sure smells that way.)
Thanks.

I think that's from the original (illegal) Real Book.

IIRC, that tune was maybe one of the added ones in the back that inevitably fell out and got lost when the plastic binder (inevitably) came apart.

 

[Don Kasper]

I think that's from the original (illegal) Real Book.

IIRC, that tune was maybe one of the added ones in the back that inevitably fell out and got lost when the plastic binder (inevitably) came apart.

Wow. What an awful Harmonic transcription. And to think that that "Book" was used as (some kind of) a textbook at Berklee.
Thankfully, it sounds like it fell out of the "....Book" quickly. I guess we'd call that a "Self-Correcting Problem."
Thanks, Carl.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Wow. What an awful Harmonic transcription. And to think that that "Book" was used as (some kind of) a textbook at Berklee.
Thankfully, it sounds like it fell out of the "....Book" quickly. I guess we'd call that a "Self-Correcting Problem."
Thanks, Carl.

Pat Metheny uses the same chords in his Pat Metheny songbook.

 

[Don Kasper]

Pat Metheny uses the same chords in his Pat Metheny songbook.

On Pat's ECM recording entitled "Bright Size Life", Jaco clearly plays (Tons of...) a "Bb" note, consistently, in m. 3 & 4...Not an "A" in the bass. The "transcriber" references Pat's ECM recording "Bright Size Life" as the version that was "transcribed".
There are some other blatant errors in the harmonic transcription, as well.
Thanks for your interest, Fredrik.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

On Pat's ECM recording entitled "Bright Size Life", Jaco clearly plays (Tons of...) a "Bb" note, consistently, in m. 3 & 4...Not an "A" in the bass. The "transcriber" references Pat's ECM recording "Bright Size Life" as the version that was "transcribed".
There are some other blatant errors in the harmonic transcription, as well.
Thanks for your interest, Fredrik.

I'm just telling you that Metheny uses the same chords in his Pat Metheny songbook. And, as I have written several times in the thread: Jaco uses mainly Bb's, but some A's.

 

[PauFerro]

It's from the Hal Leonard Legal Real Book -- Volume 1. I have a copy of that book and used it last night for a rehearsal so I'm sure. I like the layout of the tune better than the illegal Real book layout. It causes far less confusion than the illegal book version.

 

[PauFerro]

I looks like I'm gonna have to sit down with the band and try out some slash chord stuff to really internalize this. There is a lot of conflicting opinion here and it's a bit confusing.

I see Pat continued to use slash chords in Phase Dance as well...check out the last stave of the chart where there is a G/A for four bars.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/halleonard-pagepreviews/HL_DDS_0000000000215810.png

The next four bars (not pictured in the image) have it resolve a G6 (9) in his Hal Leonard Real Pat Metheny Song Book, but in the Real Book Volume II (Hal Leonard) the next four bars are Gmaj13.

The melody note over the G/A is a D and the melody notes over the Gmaj13 resolve to an F# on the bottom and A on the top.

The part I don't get is how the D works over the A bass in the G/A. Fourths usually sound bad and the D is fourth above the A bass note. It works with the G, as D is the fifth of G, but if you throw that A on the bass in the G/A chord, it should sound awful shouldn't it? But it seems to work for some reason. Anyone care to comment why?

 

[PauFerro]

On Pat's ECM recording entitled "Bright Size Life", Jaco clearly plays (Tons of...) a "Bb" note, consistently, in m. 3 & 4...Not an "A" in the bass. The "transcriber" references Pat's ECM recording "Bright Size Life" as the version that was "transcribed".
There are some other blatant errors in the harmonic transcription, as well.
Thanks for your interest, Fredrik.

I played this tune last night and also spent more time listening to it -- Jaco plays Bb on the G string for the first bar of the two-bar Bbmaj7b5/A chord, but then plays the A in the second bar. So, he does honor the slash chord eventually.

 

[Dabndug]

The next four bars (not pictured in the image) have it resolve a G6 (9) in his Hal Leonard Real Pat Metheny Song Book, but in the Real Book Volume II (Hal Leonard) the next four bars are Gmaj13.

The melody note over the G/A is a D and the melody notes over the Gmaj13 resolve to an F# on the bottom and A on the top.

The part I don't get is how the D works over the A bass in the G/A. Fourths usually sound bad and the D is fourth above the A bass note. It works with the G, as D is the fifth of G, but if you throw that A on the bass in the G/A chord, it should sound awful shouldn't it. But it seems to work for some reason. Anyone care to comment why?

Feel free to shoot me down in flames, but I was taught that a 6(9) chord worked as a I chord in major tonality - so a G6(9) could be interchanged with Gmaj7 or any of its extensions.

As noted elsewhere, G/A is effectively an A7 sus chord without a fifth, so the D is doing its job of giving you that sus chord flavour. Whilst I've been told to avoid fourths for major I chords, where it is a tritone from the major 7th, fourths can sound great in sus, dominant and minor chords - you'll see a load of dominant 11 and min11 chords doing the rounds, but very few (if any) maj11 chords.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I looks like I'm gonna have to sit down with the band and try out some slash chord stuff to really internalize this.

I highly recommend sitting down at the piano first. Write out the notes if that helps, and focus on how they sound.

There is a lot of conflicting opinion here and it's a bit confusing.

It's TalkBass- ain't no consensus here.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The part I don't get is how the D works over the A bass in the G/A. Fourths usually sound bad and the D is fourth above the A bass note. It works with the G, as D is the fifth of G, but if you throw that A on the bass in the G/A chord, it should sound awful shouldn't it? But it seems to work for some reason. Anyone care to comment why?

Keep in mind that the A is the root of the chord. A fourth does not work well if there is no perfect fifth below. So in the major scale you would get G#o/A and that doesn't sound good and even the stack of third version including the fourth Amaj9,11 won't sound good.
Whereas in mixolydian the G/A or A11 works well. The rule is if you have a maj7, then avoid an 11 (but a #11 works in these cases).

Might have to do with the fourth trying to get the position of the root, so they work against each other. With a minor seventh in there that tendency is no longer there, maybe because there is even a lower fifth that might be the root of the fourth. I think that is a perceptive thing that is hard to explain.

 

[Don Kasper]

I played this tune last night and also spent more time listening to it -- Jaco plays Bb on the G string for the first bar of the two-bar Bbmaj7b5/A chord, but then plays the A in the second bar. So, he does honor the slash chord eventually.

Hi PauFerro,
I would encourage you to listen again to the original recording and hear what note Jaco plays at the beginning of every occurrence of the written "Bbmaj7,b5/A" chord - I hear him land on a Bb ROOT every time, except during his solo. He is clearly supporting a "Bb....." tonality there, and, yes, he does occasionally play an "A" or a "C" (the maj9), or a melodic fragment of a Bb major7,#11 chord.
I would cross out the printed chord change of "Bbmaj7,b5/A" and I would name that chord (every time it appears), "Bbmaj7,#11" (NO "A" in the bass). (Calling it a "....b5" chord mistakenly implies that there is no "F" in that tonality - there is. "F" is a beautiful note in that chord, and Jaco occasionally plays a beautiful double-stop of a Perfect Fifth (Bb - F), in support of that chord.
Thanks for your time, interest and civility. I appreciate all 3.

 

[Don Kasper]

Pat Metheny uses the same chords in his Pat Metheny songbook.

Apparently, Pat Metheny never listened to the bassist on his own recording of "Bright Size Life"!
Seriously - do you believe that the chart accurately reflects what occurs on the recording?
Thanks, Fredrik.

 

[lurk]

I agree with Kasper. Listen to the recording. Listen to Jaco. What he plays will tell you what the real harmonies are. That's what bass players do.

 

[PauFerro]

Hi PauFerro,
I would encourage you to listen again to the original recording and hear what note Jaco plays at the beginning of every occurrence of the written "Bbmaj7,b5/A" chord - I hear him land on a Bb ROOT every time,

Not the way I hear it. He lands on the Bb the first time, but then I lifted the time at the point Jaco shifts to the A note shortly after landing on the Bb the second time through the A section (in the AABAA sequence)...and that's how I play it.

 

[Don Kasper]

Not the way I hear it. He lands on the Bb the first time, but then I lifted the time at the point Jaco shifts to the A note the second time through the head ...and that's how I play it.

He always lands on a Bb to clearly establish the Bb sonority, whenever the Bb chord appears. Yes, he then occasionally introduces & explores the maj7 (his open A string, or the A/Bb on the G string an octave above) after establishing the Bb, esp. when heading back to the Dmaj chord. He is implying an V - I root movement to head back to the Dmaj chord, even though there is no "A7" chord there.
The chart is not an accurate representation of what is on the recording. PM is playing a voicing that is some combination of (at least) the notes A/D/E, (a "Bbmaj7,#11 voicing). He is not playing a voicing containing a Bb, which would be necessary IF the chord being played was actually "Bbmaj7,b5/A". This is critical. PM would not waste a finger playing a Bb when the bass is playing that note. If the bass plays TONS of "A" (which it's not), PM's voicing would require a strong Bb to make that Harmony make sense. I don't hear any Bb in Pat's voicings on the Bb chord. (Except while comping for Jaco's solo - then Pat WILL play a low Bb at times to outline and clarify the Root Movement.)
Q: what is your keyboard and/or guitarist playing as a voicing on the Bb chord? Are they anticipating that the bass will be supplying a "Bb" or an "A"? This is important in the Harmonic scheme.
Are you all using the same (Hal Leonard) chart above? Maybe you and the keys/guitar should give it a collective listen and decide how you're going to approach this tune. Have the keys demonstrate the difference between his voicing for a "Bb....chord", and a "Bb.../A chord". There is/should be a significant difference.
Thanks.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Apparently, Pat Metheny never listened to the bassist on his own recording of "Bright Size Life"!
Seriously - do you believe that the chart accurately reflects what occurs on the recording?
Thanks, Fredrik.

I'm just stating the obvious: Pat Metheny uses the same chords in his Pat Metheny Songbook. That's a fact. You're welcome, Don.