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Double Bass Help me understand slash chords better
- Thread starter PauFerro
- Start date
I agree that in the case of B/C it is not obvious that it implies Cdim, Ma7 (hence my cheat sheet for students). And yes, in most cases I would rather see that written as a dim. chord. Attached is an original tune starting with 3 slash chords ending with F/F#. Yes I could have written it as Bbma7#5, Abma7#5, Fdim, ma 7, but the voicings are definitely triads and that is the sound I wanted. It is easy enough to explain in a rehearsal that D/Bb is Ma7#5, lydian augmented scale.
OK.
In the case of "F/F#", esp., (and the other 2 chords), I would provide the second name in parenthesis ("Fdim,maj7") as well...(I often write in my own preferred, familiar, chord names on charts that I'll be performing.)
Thanks.
Someone said earlier they don't feel they have a better understanding of slash chords after this discussion, and I'm in that camp. For certain songs, they seem critical. I just finished reading along with Red Sky by Pat metheny and the bass notes under the chords are critical to the song.
Other times, I just play the root of the upper chord and it works fine, like in Wave (Real Book version)...
Gonna use my ears.
Other times, I just play the root of the upper chord and it works fine, like in Wave (Real Book version)...
Gonna use my ears.
I use a scale type addition for slash chords after the bass note if the bass note is the root and (if needed) after the top chord before the slash if the bass note is not the root of the chord.
For modes of (melodic) major these are the commonly known church modes, otherwise h harmonic and m for melodic followed by Maj or Min for Major or Minor and the scale mode number as a Roman number.
Example: G/Ab hMin VI (or hMaj VI) that means Ab is the root of the sixth mode of harmonic Minor (or Major).
Since we have no commonly used names for these modes I found that the shortest way to define the scales which is easier to read that a long string of extensions. Of course one needs to get used to that but we all have to get used to understand the church modes too, so that is the next step to learn.
BTW, the modes have to be learned by their intervals. Calculating back which is the root of the first mode results in most cases in playing centered on the first mode which shouldn't be done. So if calculating might be difficult this is basically a good thing.
For modes of (melodic) major these are the commonly known church modes, otherwise h harmonic and m for melodic followed by Maj or Min for Major or Minor and the scale mode number as a Roman number.
Example: G/Ab hMin VI (or hMaj VI) that means Ab is the root of the sixth mode of harmonic Minor (or Major).
Since we have no commonly used names for these modes I found that the shortest way to define the scales which is easier to read that a long string of extensions. Of course one needs to get used to that but we all have to get used to understand the church modes too, so that is the next step to learn.
BTW, the modes have to be learned by their intervals. Calculating back which is the root of the first mode results in most cases in playing centered on the first mode which shouldn't be done. So if calculating might be difficult this is basically a good thing.
Just curious - how are the first 2 chords named/spelled in the PM book? (from 0:00 - 0:47). I hear and would write (1 measure each in 3/2 time signature) - "Amin9,11" to "Dmin9,11/A" in the bass.
This tune uses a lot of Pedal Tone in the bass - 2 chords, but the bass note remains the same underneath both chords. This IS a clear and logical use of writing a "slash chord" to indicate the Inversion of the second chord.
For ex. - The chord "Dmin9,11/A " is just that chord in Second Inversion, that is, the Fifth of the chord D,F,A,C,E,G, (the "A") is in the bass.
In this case the bassist does not have a lot of liberty for note choices as the Pedal Tone is a crucial element of the Harmonic structure of the composition.
Thanks for your time and interest.
Actually - Emi7/A - Fmaj7/A - G/A - Fmaj7/A
Interesting because Emi7/A is essentially the same as G/A-just a more specific way of notating.
Normally this would indicate mixolydian (suspended), but since it is followed by Fma7/A-(aeolian), Pat plays Amin or A blues over this. A C# would sound wrong in this context. In Maiden Voyage, the sus chords Ami7/D, Cmi7/F and Bbmi7/Eb are definitely mixolydian. Context is everything!
Interesting because Emi7/A is essentially the same as G/A-just a more specific way of notating.
Normally this would indicate mixolydian (suspended), but since it is followed by Fma7/A-(aeolian), Pat plays Amin or A blues over this. A C# would sound wrong in this context. In Maiden Voyage, the sus chords Ami7/D, Cmi7/F and Bbmi7/Eb are definitely mixolydian. Context is everything!
I grew up a jazz guitar player. My teacher never showed me a “slash” chord.
There’s a music school saying that the way you get a guitar player to stop playing is to put a piece of music in front of him, the implication being that as a group, guitar players’ music reading skills are often poor to nonexistent. IMHO, slash chords are to accommodate guitar players - there is no need for them (slash chords, that is, not guitar players. If we didn’t have guitar players, there’d be no one for musicians to make fun of.).
-S-
There’s a music school saying that the way you get a guitar player to stop playing is to put a piece of music in front of him, the implication being that as a group, guitar players’ music reading skills are often poor to nonexistent. IMHO, slash chords are to accommodate guitar players - there is no need for them (slash chords, that is, not guitar players. If we didn’t have guitar players, there’d be no one for musicians to make fun of.).
-S-
It's been said many times in this thread, but slash chords are harmonic voicing indicators rather than scale indicators. Sometimes they are needed to get a particular sound across to the person fleshing out the harmony if the composer/arranger wants it to be a specific set of notes over a bass note. An example is a tune I recently composed for a chamber jazz concert where I wanted a very specific sound harmonically. The pianist, an excellent jazz pianist and treasured colleague, asked me to write the harmony in slash chords because he was concerned he wouldn't realize the harmony the way I wanted if I didn't, and he didn't want to take any chances. Here's an excerpt:
At the rehearsal before I did this, he was adding color tones I didn't really intend, voicing things in a way I didn't intend, and both of us felt weird about it. I made a recording of the kinds of voicings I wanted and sent it to him, but he (quite reasonably) said "I totally hear where that is coming from, but I'll never remember all that". So I wrote out the harmony as slash chords, and he immediately nailed what I was after.
At the rehearsal before I did this, he was adding color tones I didn't really intend, voicing things in a way I didn't intend, and both of us felt weird about it. I made a recording of the kinds of voicings I wanted and sent it to him, but he (quite reasonably) said "I totally hear where that is coming from, but I'll never remember all that". So I wrote out the harmony as slash chords, and he immediately nailed what I was after.
Q: Can you elaborate and clarify the actual voicing notes for the chords named "Gsus2/B" vs. "Gadd2/B", and "Dadd2/F#" vs. "Dsus2/F#". (The "....sus2" vs. "...add2" nomenclature is confusing to me.)
Please and Thank You.
HEY!!! Somebody tell Chris Fitz that I have a question for him. (I'm on his IGNORE list!)
Thanks, TBers!
Thanks, TBers!
You're actually not.
Sure.
Gsus2/B is the notes G, A, and D over a B bass note.
Gadd2/B is G, A, B, and D over a B bass note.
Dadd2/F# is D, E, F# and A over an F# bass note.
Dsus2 over F# is D, E, and A over an F# bass note.
The video of the concert forwarded to the spot of the excerpt above can be found here:
Says Video Unavailable, and when you click to watch it on YouTube, it starts at the beginning.
-S-
-S-
Oh, sorry! The listed excerpt starts at about 13:45 or so.
It basically showed the same chord functions over the bass notes, but without the specificity on the upper parts. I thought that plus the recording of the voicings might suffice, but Gabe was right - remembering all those details was too much to ask, and what we ended up with was a better solution in the end and once he had the chart with this information he pretty much nailed it right away. A lot better than me saying,
[stoned dreamer voice]
Dude, so I'm, like... you know, going for a sort of Brahms meets Bruce Hornsby meets Charlie Haden vibe with this, right?
[/stoned dreamer voice]
Well, now you've gotten me to the other side. Standard standards notation (did I just say that?) doesn't allow for anything except a root position chord. If you want another bass note, how else would you get it _except_ for a slash? If classical, with figured bass, and we know if you want, e.g., Emin7b5 with a G bass you can say Gmin6, but that last bit of sleight of hand only works if there's another name for what you want.
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered am I.
-S-
