I'm also stating the obvious - the chart does not accurately reflect what actually occurs on the recording.
(I see that you've not answered my question.)
You're Very Welcome, Fredrik!
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Double Bass Help me understand slash chords better
- Thread starter PauFerro
- Start date
(I see that you've not answered my question.)
You're Very Welcome, Fredrik!
That's ok. I just pointed at a fact after your comment "awful harmonic transcription", which is the same as Pat Metheny uses in his book.
I belive Pat may have used the chords he himself played on the guitar, without regard to what the bassplayer should do. And there is, as he stated himself in the interview quoted earlier, "a certain sence of harmonic ambiguity". Jaco uses the A from time to time, but mostly Bb (as written several times in the thread). Now, Pat was not an educated musician at the time ("While playing at a club in Kansas City, he was approached by Bill Lee, a dean at the University of Miami, and offered a scholarship. After less than a week at college, Metheny realized that playing guitar all day during his teens had left him unprepared for classes. He admitted this to Lee, who offered him a job to teach instead, as the school had recently introduced electric guitar as a course of study"). I belive that if a educated musician had asked him what he really meant, the chart would look different.
(On the other hand, about the b5/#11: In my book, it's not uncommon to state one chord on the head (Bbma7(b5) = no 5th) and use a different chord under the solos (Bbma7(#11) = you may use the 5th the solo or voicings)).
Richard Bona uses a more traditional approach on their live recording with Antonio Sanchez. Bb's on the Bbma7(b5)/A, and a lot of F's on the same chord, Emi7 - A7 - Dma7 on the last 4 of the bridge etc. And, I absolutely love the lick on Gma7 in bar 10.
It's a guitar trio -- EUB bass, drums, and guitar and that's it. We haven't sat down and shared what we are doing individually. Our guitarist tends to do a very faithful rendition of songs that we pick for our repertoire though. So I think he's playing it much the way Pat Metheny is playing it.
Yes, we use the Hal Leonard chart -- the one that gets rid of the coda as a short cut to writing out the last A section in the AABAA [edit: after the fact correction -- AABA]structure you hear on the record. Every time I hit the Bbma7(b5)/A I milk the A and it sounds really cool. I do it that way because I love Maj7 chords. It works with what our guitarist is doing.
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?
The original recording is AABA (8 bars each) during the melody and solos. As I hear it.
Thanks.
We use this chart, described as AABC on the chart bu the C section is really AABA
Link Removed
Right, my mistake...
Here is PM and UW playing BSL.
Re: m.3 & 4 and m.7 of the A sections, and throughout the tune.
I hear mostly a Bbmaj sonority (not a Bb/A), though UW does (inadvertently?) play an "Bb/A" at 1:39. (His open A string is ringing/unmuted from the prior "strum"), and there is some ambiguity as to the root at 1:49, as well.)
And - check out PM's comping behind the solo at 3:10 - PM plays a C9sus4! (or the dreaded "Bb/C"). Chord/Scale Disciples(tm) will understand the logic of how PM arrived at that choice.
Also - they both are using Emin6/9 (the dreaded "A7/E") in m.5/6 of the Bridge (B section.) I don't hear any bass note or root movement to a "A" in m.6, (in the lower register) which would make a nice "A7,add13" to set up a V -I cadence to the Dmaj chord in m.7 of the Bridge.
Thanks.
Re: m.3 & 4 and m.7 of the A sections, and throughout the tune.
I hear mostly a Bbmaj sonority (not a Bb/A), though UW does (inadvertently?) play an "Bb/A" at 1:39. (His open A string is ringing/unmuted from the prior "strum"), and there is some ambiguity as to the root at 1:49, as well.)
And - check out PM's comping behind the solo at 3:10 - PM plays a C9sus4! (or the dreaded "Bb/C"). Chord/Scale Disciples(tm) will understand the logic of how PM arrived at that choice.
Also - they both are using Emin6/9 (the dreaded "A7/E") in m.5/6 of the Bridge (B section.) I don't hear any bass note or root movement to a "A" in m.6, (in the lower register) which would make a nice "A7,add13" to set up a V -I cadence to the Dmaj chord in m.7 of the Bridge.
Thanks.
Here is an example of the sound of the (written) "Bbmaj7b5/A" chord, as found throughout the Universe in most The Real Book and Hal Leonard fake books. Note the absence of a Bb in the lowest register, (only "A's"), and the presence of a Bb in the chord voicing (A,Bb,D.)
I don't think this gentleman has ever listened (closely) to, or has heard, the original PM version.
It's amazing that this chart is still circulating (uncorrected) throughout the Universe.
IMFO.
Thanks.
EDIT: I was a dummass and forgot to attach the YT!
I don't think this gentleman has ever listened (closely) to, or has heard, the original PM version.
It's amazing that this chart is still circulating (uncorrected) throughout the Universe.
IMFO.
Thanks.
EDIT: I was a dummass and forgot to attach the YT!
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After slogging through this thread, I feel I should mention another reason (not that any more are needed) not to think of that Bbmaj7b5/A (or Bbmaj7#11, etc.) as a kind of F chord. My reason is this: F# sounds really great on that chord. You may notice that F# in fact appears in the melody on that chord, as well as in the first A section of Jaco's solo. If you want to interpret the first three chords of the tune functionally, you could think of it as Gmaj7 to Gmin(maj7) (or Gmin6) to Dmaj. This is an incredibly common chord progression and the melody in bar 4 seems to imply this pretty strongly. The flexibility of being able to use an F or F# while soloing gives the players freedom to take advantage of some of that "harmonic ambiguity." F natural does seem much more common on the blowing and in the comping, though.
I'm not sure I understand slash chords better than before, but wow, is this the longest thread ever devoted to discussing one single chord in one song?
Haha, I was thinking something like that myself as I read through this. Maybe that opening chord to "Hard Day's Night" has been discussed as much? (Was that a slash chord?
)
Didn't read the whole thread but just putting it out there to be clear on the two different kinds of "slash chords".
Inversions:
x/x = chord / single bass note ie. Cmaj7/E
Polychords:
x (not sure how well that looks on the screen) Flat line, is chord over another chord.
x
ie. C major over E major. (CEG over EG#B)
In lead sheets, the chord symbols are there for everyone, bass, piano, guitar, horn.. all looking at the same 1 chord name. The / chord is the tell the bassist what to play, while the top is for the others, all while trying to be clear. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Once the chords are full up on extensions, inversions can be called by something else and naming gets blurry. If notes are left out too, things get ambiguous. Not a big deal, there are multiple ways to think about all this.
Inversions:
x/x = chord / single bass note ie. Cmaj7/E
Polychords:
x (not sure how well that looks on the screen) Flat line, is chord over another chord.
x
ie. C major over E major. (CEG over EG#B)
In lead sheets, the chord symbols are there for everyone, bass, piano, guitar, horn.. all looking at the same 1 chord name. The / chord is the tell the bassist what to play, while the top is for the others, all while trying to be clear. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Once the chords are full up on extensions, inversions can be called by something else and naming gets blurry. If notes are left out too, things get ambiguous. Not a big deal, there are multiple ways to think about all this.
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I think the slash chord thing in general is more saying that it is the lowest note on the chord instrument that plays the chord vertically.
Therefore, the transcriber would be expected to transcribe the guitar chords - not to say those are all perfect. Since the chart didn't likely have written bass part there is no reason for the transcriber to concern themselves with what Jaco did or didn't play.
Bass players do all kinds of different things in relation to the given chord, in short: slash chords are not our problem. A straight arpeggio is rarely a good bass line anyway.
If Pat wrote the slash chords and considers those the chords to the composition - it is then correct whether they were referenced on BSL or not.
I heard they rehearsed with one of our favorite double bass players and Jaco was a last minute addition. I think his lines should be considered improvisations and not part of the chart for the tune.
It is a great album!!
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Disagree.
Disagree, again.
Disagree, again, again.
Disagree Strongly.
Disagree Strongly, again.
Agree!
I am hoping that you understand that the tune, and a chart for that tune existed before the recording, right? The tune very likely existed before asking Jaco to play - whatever that chart says is the composition, regardless of what Jaco played.
I'll agree that it would be weird to transcribe the slash chords that are not there, and you are probably right that we bassists shouldn't blow them off entirely, still we are not obligated to play the notes in a specific order anymore than when faced with any other chord, which was my point.
I'll agree that it would be weird to transcribe the slash chords that are not there, and you are probably right that we bassists shouldn't blow them off entirely, still we are not obligated to play the notes in a specific order anymore than when faced with any other chord, which was my point.
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First of all, I love slash chords! I think it might be more useful to think of them in terms of the mode they suggest. Of course the root of the chord is all powerful, but whether it is A or Bb in the bass, the mode is Fmaj scale-so Bb lydian or A phrygian depending on the bass note. I think the real book chart is accurate. G/A and F/G suggest mixolydian, and that's what they are playing. And yes, they are voicing specific, in whatever inversion, but 2nd inversion sounds the strongest.
Here is a cheat of some slash chords with their corresponding modes. This is subjective of course, and there is always more then one way to write a chord symbol. Slash chord harmony is often non-functional-check out Pee Wee-Miles, or Ana Maria-Wayne Shorter, or Inside out by Randy Brecker
I think my main quarrel is that "slash chord" nomenclature is often most helpful to (only) the chordal instruments to suggest a specific voicing. For the bassist, it is more valuable (whenever possible) to provide a deeper Harmonic analysis of the slash chord.
For ex. - "B/C". This is really suggesting (strongly, IMO) the sound of a "Cdim,maj7" chord, which I believe is a more complete Harmonic picture and is more useful to a bassist just beginning to decode jazz harmony...(and, possibly), any other melodic instrument that may be improvising.
Or, "F/B", which is strongly suggesting the sound of a "B7,b9,#11".
Conversely, the Bridge to "Naima", begins with "Bmaj7/Bb", and I WOULD write that chord that way.
But that's me...
Thanks for your time and expertise, Hans.
