Help me understand

[Scott Lynch]

There is an enormous selection of amps and cabs out in the market right now. The laws of competition dictate that every amp or cabinet needs to have something that makes it different or 'stand out' in order to appeal to a particular cohort of players. People describe a "Mesa" sound or "Ampeg" or "Aguilar" sound, etc, or some amps or cabs have particular features, like the voicing control on the Genzler amps, for example. Some amp designers even aim to stand out by making amps totally uncolored and neutral sounding.

When performing any gig that has FOH, the bass amp is essentially relegated to monitoring duty. The FOH engineer needs a sound that can be easily sculpted, EQ-wise at least, to sit appropriately in the mix. Given the different EQ needs of the house vs the stage, it makes sense then to send a DI signal that is Pre-EQ. I know this is not a universal solution but one opted for by many bassists and sound guys.

As I understand it, in most amps a pre-EQ signal essentially goes straight from the input jack to the DI, bypassing the circuitry that 'colors' or gives the particular 'flavor' of that amp to the signal (not to mention the organic tone shaping effect of the speaker that is essential to capturing the essence of many signature bass tones). Looking at the schematic for the Mesa D-800, for example, this seems to be the case. (Please correct me if I am wrong on these last two points) Assuming this is correct, coloration of the basic sound to the ears of any listener hearing only the sound from FOH is caused by the bass, any effects between and bass and amp such as a compressor, and finally by any inherent tone and EQ shaping done at the mixing board. The bass amp itself is just a conduit to the mixing board. The exception to this would be the transformers in certain DIs, such as the Jensen found in some high end bass amps like Demeter, or Cinemag (REDDI). Even then, there's not nearly as many options for transformer based coloration relative to the inherent 'flavor' of the many amps on the market.

To most of our audience then, our amplifier is essentially the PA system - something while not perfectly flat, is designed with transparency in sound amplification, not coloration.

My main question to you is this: given all of these factors, why do so many of us obsess over these nuances in tone of these different amps if that element of the sound doesn't make it to the audience?

Before you judge what I've written know that the situation I described is my own. I've just recently become really irked by it - I generally like the sound I get from my amp, but why wouldn't it be preferable to have a sound that is as close as possible to what the audience is hearing?

In light of all this, I understand why many players are moving to ampless setups and why speaker sims have gained in popularity. It's a reliable way to get that speaker coloration and baked-in amp tone to the FOH without the hassle of mic bleed and disparate EQ settings. Particularly for guys who do a fair amount of recording, especially with plug-ins, I can see why one would want to get that tone out into a live setting.

Thanks for reading. What is your take on all of this?

 

[baldbassclef]

Following! One of the bands I play in requires the bass player (myself) to use an amp while the guitarists both use a modeling/processor Helix rig. The band leader says it's because the monitors don't create the same feel on stage. What are your thoughts?

 

[Passinwind]

Thanks for reading. What is your take on all of this?

For starters, you might want to take a look at the recent poll on how many TB'ers are actually gigging without their onstage amp providing some or all of the room reinforcement: POLL: Who needs an amp on some gigs because of vocals-only PA?

 

[el murdoque]

I am with you on most points - but I'd like to mention one point:
A good friend of mine that does FOH quite frequently has a very high class PA system. His speakers are more or less flat, as far as that can be achieved in the room they are in. The sounds he does, however, are far from that.
When there's a bass amp on stage, he will listen to that sound and try to reproduce it over his system. Off course, you can't have all the smallest nuances, but overall, he does a pretty good job with that.
So when you have the luck and that guy is manning the FOH desk, your amp will give him the idea of how you want to sound out front and he will do his best to achieve that sound through FOH.

Apart from that - I usually bring a Headrush Gigboard or a Sansamp pedal nowadays and leave the cabinet hauling to the guitar players. My amp comes out whenever I'm not sure about the quality of the PA. We have one or two 'black sheep' in our circle of organizers. People who will often cheap out on things like PA and lights rental and present you with something that looks like it's been dragged in from the trash. In those cases, I will use my rig to carry the venue and make room on the FOH for those who need it.

 

[basscooker]

Really most of the time the FOH guys are willing to give a try to copping the tone you're aiming for.

Lots of amps have a pre/post switch for the DI. As long as you aren't carving out too much of the spectrum, or conversely feeding them a peaky tinny tone they'll use it post if you ask.

I'm not much of a tone freak, myself. I actually prefer to just let the guy do his thing. A lot of the time I dont want my stage tone to muck things up, so I'm a bit midrangey to cut better for the rest of the group without being that loud. The consoles and subs have what they need usually to make my basses' signal sit well in the mix.

 

[marko138]

I give the sound guy post-EQ DI out of my Ampeg PF500 unless he specifies otherwise. My EQ isn't terribly aggressive, bass flat, mids bumped to about 2 o'clock, treble flat, so it probably doesn't matter a whole lot. I keep my gain dimed and run just a touch of overdrive off my Ampeg pedal.

 

[David Jayne]

MOST bass cabs don't sound like PA cabs at all. For this reason sending a Post EQ DI really is generally pointless-the sound you hear from your cabs is nothing like what the PA will make. If you want your CAB sound out there you gotta mic it up. Why bother with onstage cabs when going DI? Because I like it - and usually the monitors won't cut it for bass anyway.

 

[agedhorse]

It depends, every situation is different.

 

[oldfclefer]

If I really like the tone I'm getting from my amp, I'll insist on the FOH mic-ing my rig. Even to the point that I carry my own mic. Still, it's up to the FOH to set up your sound correctly. A little politicking won't hurt at all . Send the tech a drink.

 

[byacey]

What's coming out of the bass cab isn't necessarily what is needed in the house, and what is coming from the front of house isn't always what the bassist wants to hear. With front of house pa support, the bass cab on stage is a monitor and often a security blanket to keep the bassist comfortable and happy.

 

[arbiterusa]

What is your take on all of this?

Prefer the "board sound" in the first place - bass, cable, console input - so I just try to get that tone out of my amp, send it pre-EQ to the house (if there is a house, which there frequently is not) and let them do whatever. I can't hear what everything sounds like out front, so I count on the soundguys to do their job and make it sound good.

As for me, just so long as I can hear enough bass to stay in pitch (fretless guy) that's all I really care about.

I am not a stickler for "my tone". That's a waste of time unless you're in your bedroom or a recording studio. Live bass tone (and live sound in general) always reminds me of that famous Tyson quote: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

 

[Jim Carr]

...When performing any gig that has FOH, the bass amp is essentially relegated to monitoring duty...

To most of our audience then, our amplifier is essentially the PA system - something while not perfectly flat, is designed with transparency in sound amplification, not coloration...

...I generally like the sound I get from my amp, but why wouldn't it be preferable to have a sound that is as close as possible to what the audience is hearing?...

Bass players often do not have FOH support. Thus, their amp and it's tone is a BIG issue.

However, when going direct and using my amp as a stage monitor, I find having a pre amp with "EQ defeat" quite helpful when using a pre/power amp rig. The pre amp's color is less of an issue. The instrument and pedals have sway. The DI comes last on the pedal train.

A full range flat-ish cabinet helps get the sound of my bass/pedals onto the stage, without a lot of color from the cab. I guess I've turned my amp into a PA simulator, LOL!

Is it perfect? No. Is it what I always do? No. Sometimes I just crank a Prodigy tube head, or tweak my d800. It's not about rules, it's about music.

Paraphrasing TR: "Play loudly and carry a good DI."

 

[Scott Lynch]

For starters, you might want to take a look at the recent poll on how many TB'ers are actually gigging without their onstage amp providing some or all of the room reinforcement: POLL: Who needs an amp on some gigs because of vocals-only PA?

I am familiar with JimmyM's poll. Good data for the subject at hand. Of course, if the venue size and PA capabilities dictate that the bass amp carry the room, that's a win for someone who wants their tone getting out to the audience. This, however, is not the subject of my original post. I am sometimes is DIed and sometimes carrying the room with my amp, and am trying to reconcile the discrepancies in those two sounds.

I am with you on most points - but I'd like to mention one point:
A good friend of mine that does FOH quite frequently has a very high class PA system. His speakers are more or less flat, as far as that can be achieved in the room they are in. The sounds he does, however, are far from that.
When there's a bass amp on stage, he will listen to that sound and try to reproduce it over his system. Off course, you can't have all the smallest nuances, but overall, he does a pretty good job with that.
So when you have the luck and that guy is manning the FOH desk, your amp will give him the idea of how you want to sound out front and he will do his best to achieve that sound through FOH.

Apart from that - I usually bring a Headrush Gigboard or a Sansamp pedal nowadays and leave the cabinet hauling to the guitar players. My amp comes out whenever I'm not sure about the quality of the PA. We have one or two 'black sheep' in our circle of organizers. People who will often cheap out on things like PA and lights rental and present you with something that looks like it's been dragged in from the trash. In those cases, I will use my rig to carry the venue and make room on the FOH for those who need it.

It would be nice to always have sound guys who tried their best. I would imagine that good EQ gets some elements of the sound to be pretty close. But imagine that you have a class D amp with circuitry that emulates the lower order harmonic distortion often classified as "tubiness". You love that sound. The DI, however, doesn't send that to the house. I get why you would gig a Headrush or Sansamp in that instance.

Really most of the time the FOH guys are willing to give a try to copping the tone you're aiming for.

Lots of amps have a pre/post switch for the DI. As long as you aren't carving out too much of the spectrum, or conversely feeding them a peaky tinny tone they'll use it post if you ask.

I'm not much of a tone freak, myself. I actually prefer to just let the guy do his thing. A lot of the time I dont want my stage tone to muck things up, so I'm a bit midrangey to cut better for the rest of the group without being that loud. The consoles and subs have what they need usually to make my basses' signal sit well in the mix.

I get that. Maybe those nuances in the amp sound aren't significant enough to the whole mix, but still important to the player? It still just feels weird to me, like my sound is 'dishonest'... I can't think of a better way to describe it.

MOST bass cabs don't sound like PA cabs at all. For this reason sending a Post EQ DI really is generally pointless-the sound you hear from your cabs is nothing like what the PA will make. If you want your CAB sound out there you gotta mic it up. Why bother with onstage cabs when going DI? Because I like it - and usually the monitors won't cut it for bass anyway.

If it wasn't clear enough in my first post, the difference in tone between bass cabs and PA speakers is one of my main conundrums. I get where you're coming from - the boom of a bass cab is certainly nice. But - what about the essence of the amp's sound? How important is it in the mix?

What's coming out of the bass cab isn't necessarily what is needed in the house, and what is coming from the front of house isn't always what the bassist wants to hear. With front of house pa support, the bass cab on stage is a monitor and often a security blanket to keep the bassist comfortable and happy.

In terms of EQ, I can understand the importance of that. But what about tone? Say you're playing a PF-50T and you want that tubey, midrangey goodness as part of the band mix. The character and response of that amp is unmistakable, sounding nothing like a PA channel. Surely you have to meet in the middle somewhere with the EQ as well?

Prefer the "board sound" in the first place - bass, cable, console input - so I just try to get that tone out of my amp, send it pre-EQ to the house (if there is a house, which there frequently is not) and let them do whatever. I can't hear what everything sounds like out front, so I count on the soundguys to do their job and make it sound good.

As for me, just so long as I can hear enough bass to stay in pitch (fretless guy) that's all I really care about.

I am not a stickler for "my tone". That's a waste of time unless you're in your bedroom or a recording studio. Live bass tone (and live sound in general) always reminds me of that famous Tyson quote: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

Sounds like an amp of the neutral, clean variety is your preference.

Lol at the Tyson quote. Many live situations are so far from acoustically ideal that sometimes the struggle is to just get any kind of good sound. I can relate to that. It makes me question if my concerns are even significant enough to matter in the mix.

It depends, every situation is different.

Perhaps circumstances sometimes dictate that it is worth it to go to the 'nth' to get the subtle details of an amps sound, and others where it isn't. Part of me wants to say 'go for it' every time, but I acknowledge that certain acoustic environments can be challenging, and that those things are largely out of my control.

 

[Leonid Nidis]

In smaller closed places the amp can be a big part of the total sound.
IMO with a passive bass post EQ(amp or pedal) to DI is much better and organic sounding than the clean signal.
I use a pedal plus whatever amp that the venue provides.If there is no amp I might bring a combo for a monitor.
Why people obsess with amps?I think its cos they like them,like to buy them and play with them.Same reason one can get 5 basses when 2 is enough(thats me).

I see more and more serious players that used to bring amps sell them off and go without.
Some bigger venues\events insist on a clean pre eq signal.
Amps as a practical tool will soon will be a thing of the past,it will take longer in the states though.

 

[FugaziBomb]

My main question to you is this: given all of these factors, why do so many of us obsess over these nuances in tone of these different amps if that element of the sound doesn't make it to the audience?

Short answer: because I mic my 2x10 cab.

The longer answer is that I bi-amp. I send my lows to the desk via DI, but my mids/highs and all the effects go to FOH via a single SM57. We have a guy in my originals band who coordinates all of this with FOH so I don't have to. He also ensures my 2x10 is in the mix properly. He is a key player, for sure.

When I play covers or sub gigs, I almost always leave my amp in the car

 

[arbiterusa]

Lol at the Tyson quote. Many live situations are so far from acoustically ideal that sometimes the struggle is to just get any kind of good sound.

Precisely. When I EQ, it's never to change my bass tone (which is just normally "dead flat"), it's to fix the room so that every note I play doesn't sound like a foghorn. When that's the level of auditory combat you're in, concerns about maintaining "your tone" really become insignificant.

 

[Seashore]

I obsess over my rig because it's the rig I happen to own, the particulars of the bass tone are pretty important to our overall mix, and almost without fail, my rig carries the room - which means all those little adjustments are entirely my responsibility. That'll stop being true when every bar and small club and rehearsal space I wind up in has a PA that can handle the full band mix.

 

[uncle woody]

I care more if I sound good to me rather than I sound good to the audience.

 

[David Jayne]

I get what you're saying. But in the case of the Ampeg PF-50T in particular (and tube heads in general) the sound you hear is in part DIRECTLY related to how the amplifier deals with the reactive, ever changing speaker load. Another example would be an old GK RB head- they sound the way they sound in part for the same reason. There are surely others. You can't get this sound with a DI although I suppose a speaker-level DI would be closer, but you can't safely use those with Class D heads. So. In most cases the only real way to get the amp sound to the PA is to mic the cab. Yes, the tone of the amp is largely or totally lost when using DI. Does it matter? Maybe. To me it does not.

 

[bbh]

I like to think the sound crew would take care of it. After all, I can’t tell as I’m hearing the backs of the mains. A great FOH guy would get close to your amp sound but the overall band sound is much more important.