Help me understand

[el murdoque]

It would be nice to always have sound guys who tried their best. I would imagine that good EQ gets some elements of the sound to be pretty close. But imagine that you have a class D amp with circuitry that emulates the lower order harmonic distortion often classified as "tubiness". You love that sound. The DI, however, doesn't send that to the house. I get why you would gig a Headrush or Sansamp in that instance.

I know what you mean. I do own and sometimes gig an Ampeg PF-50T as well.
But in my book, as an amateur that gigs occasionally - and mostly for audiences smaller than 500,
it's cobbling something together that works with small'ish PA systems without too much of a hassle.
I'd often prefer a tube amp mic'ed with a Sennheiser 421, but that only works well when the FOH person knows how to do it. The same setup, digital, in a Headrush board, has worked astoundingly well so far.

 

[darwin-bass]

I'm a church sound guy so my experience and typical gig is not the norm.

Our PA carries everything but getting a bass to sound good in the room is a struggle if there is a bass amp on stage. FOH volume levels peak at 88-90 dBA in the room and the wash from the bass amp really messes up the sound.

We recently went ampless / IEM and I can finally get the bass to sound good in the house. Which means I can finally get the bass to be heard in the midst of the rest of the instruments. The differences in tone between different basses is finally beginning to be heard. Almost. The was impossible for us before the silent stage.

 

[Jim Carr]

I'm a church sound guy so my experience and typical gig is not the norm.

Our PA carries everything but getting a bass to sound good in the room is a struggle if there is a bass amp on stage. FOH volume levels peak at 88-90 dBA in the room and the wash from the bass amp really messes up the sound.

We recently went ampless / IEM and I can finally get the bass to sound good in the house. Which means I can finally get the bass to be heard in the midst of the rest of the instruments. The differences in tone between different basses is finally beginning to be heard. Almost. The was impossible for us before the silent stage.

IME, ampless for bass often means I can't hear myself. Are you using IEMs?

 

[darwin-bass]

IME, ampless for bass often means I can't hear myself. Are you using IEMs?

Yes all the bassists are running IEM and dialing in their own mix via personal monitor mixer. We have the bass near the subwoofer too so we all get some lows from FOH and depend on the IEM for the clarity. And every bassist is saying they hear themselves just fine. None are pining to return to the on-stage amp.

 

[Jim Carr]

Yes all the bassists are running IEM and dialing in their own mix via personal monitor mixer. We have the bass near the subwoofer too so we all get some lows from FOH and depend on the IEM for the clarity. And every bassist is saying they hear themselves just fine. None are pining to return to the on-stage amp.

Sounds like a good approach. IEM's are light!

 

[InhumanResource]

There is an enormous selection of amps and cabs out in the market right now. The laws of competition dictate that every amp or cabinet needs to have something that makes it different or 'stand out' in order to appeal to a particular cohort of players. People describe a "Mesa" sound or "Ampeg" or "Aguilar" sound, etc, or some amps or cabs have particular features, like the voicing control on the Genzler amps, for example. Some amp designers even aim to stand out by making amps totally uncolored and neutral sounding.

When performing any gig that has FOH, the bass amp is essentially relegated to monitoring duty. The FOH engineer needs a sound that can be easily sculpted, EQ-wise at least, to sit appropriately in the mix. Given the different EQ needs of the house vs the stage, it makes sense then to send a DI signal that is Pre-EQ. I know this is not a universal solution but one opted for by many bassists and sound guys.

As I understand it, in most amps a pre-EQ signal essentially goes straight from the input jack to the DI, bypassing the circuitry that 'colors' or gives the particular 'flavor' of that amp to the signal (not to mention the organic tone shaping effect of the speaker that is essential to capturing the essence of many signature bass tones). Looking at the schematic for the Mesa D-800, for example, this seems to be the case. (Please correct me if I am wrong on these last two points) Assuming this is correct, coloration of the basic sound to the ears of any listener hearing only the sound from FOH is caused by the bass, any effects between and bass and amp such as a compressor, and finally by any inherent tone and EQ shaping done at the mixing board. The bass amp itself is just a conduit to the mixing board. The exception to this would be the transformers in certain DIs, such as the Jensen found in some high end bass amps like Demeter, or Cinemag (REDDI). Even then, there's not nearly as many options for transformer based coloration relative to the inherent 'flavor' of the many amps on the market.

To most of our audience then, our amplifier is essentially the PA system - something while not perfectly flat, is designed with transparency in sound amplification, not coloration.

My main question to you is this: given all of these factors, why do so many of us obsess over these nuances in tone of these different amps if that element of the sound doesn't make it to the audience?

Before you judge what I've written know that the situation I described is my own. I've just recently become really irked by it - I generally like the sound I get from my amp, but why wouldn't it be preferable to have a sound that is as close as possible to what the audience is hearing?

In light of all this, I understand why many players are moving to ampless setups and why speaker sims have gained in popularity. It's a reliable way to get that speaker coloration and baked-in amp tone to the FOH without the hassle of mic bleed and disparate EQ settings. Particularly for guys who do a fair amount of recording, especially with plug-ins, I can see why one would want to get that tone out into a live setting.

Thanks for reading. What is your take on all of this?

I have no idea. I don't obsess over it, I just dial in something I like. No idea what's happening out front.

 

[Spiky_Bassist]

I care more if I sound good to me rather than I sound good to the audience.

^ This. Taking a totally different approach to this discussion, why do we make music? I mean, clearly bass guitar doesn't get the love the regular guitar player gets and if you're going for best/most groupies, you're duking it out with the drummer. So why bother trying to get the best sound out there when 99% aren't going to notice/appreciate it (if it even gets to them, per the DI/lazy sound guy argument)?

Because it's art. I know I hate that label and I'm no fan of pretentiousness, but I think it's accurate (at least for some players and music). When I play bass, I'm not playing because it's a job or my sole source of income (but please, professional musicians let me know your thoughts) but because I enjoy it and there is an aesthetic component to my enjoyment. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it. The money is not that good, the hours can be crazy and let's not start ranting about band drama and drummers' ability to keep time. So it has to be about enjoying it.

I enjoy playing more when I think I sound good. And I think I sound best with my amp. Ideally, the sound guy, the FOH setup, and the overall vibe of a venue are great and everything that I hear onstage gets to the audience ears (at least the parts where I don't screw up too bad). Bringing my amp instead of just a DI means I can always be ready for the (occasional) opportunity where the stars align and everything is awesome. If the sound guy is lazy, the FOH setup sucks or something, there's only so much I can do. But at least I brought my A(mp) game.

 

[mikezimmerman]

We "obsess" over LOTS of small things in our signal chains that make a difference to us as a player, but are not perceptible to audience members in the slightest. Why should the amp not be part of that?

 

[SactoBass]

When I play bass, I'm not playing because it's a job or my sole source of income, but because I enjoy it and there is an aesthetic component to my enjoyment. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it.

I enjoy playing more when I think I sound good. And I think I sound best with my amp.

 

[Marcus Willett]

...My main question to you is this: given all of these factors, why do so many of us obsess over these nuances in tone of these different amps if that element of the sound doesn't make it to the audience?....What is your take on all of this?

IMO, IME, the answer to most of these types of questions (that is to say, mic vs DI, sending the sound man “my sound”, amp as monitor/amp as tone creator, pre EQ/post EQ, pedals to FOH or not, getting the “pure” sound of the bass....whatever the Hell that is...and the BIG one...”the audience can’t tell the difference”) ALL of it, has an annoying tendency to simply ignore a very basic fact.

The sound you hear will affect how you play. How you play will then affect the sound you hear and so on. So many people like to pretend that performing a bass part is this isolated experience in a vacuum. You simply play the part. Whatever tone you hear, whether it’s distorted chaos or reggae rumble or clacky noise...that doesn’t matter, you’ll just play the bass line and all you need is something to make it loud enough to hear. All the sound man needs is some sort of mythical “pure” tone that can then be sculpted to suit his vision of what bass is supposed to sound like.

If you have any musical sensitivity at all (and if you don’t, then you really should do something else), what you hear WILL affect how you play. Sure, being a pro means (to an extent) rising above this and delivering a professional performance (almost) no matter what, but even the best pros are human, and humans are affected by things that their senses perceive.

OK rant off...what was the question again?

 

[agedhorse]

I care more if I sound good to me rather than I sound good to the audience.

Wow, why play out and subject an audience (and sound guy) to this?

 

[uncle woody]

Wow, why play out and subject an audience (and sound guy) to this?

Because it makes me happy

 

[David Jayne]

Wow, why play out and subject an audience (and sound guy) to this?

I read that as "I have a lot of control over what I hear but relatively little control over what the audience hears, so if I have to chose what to care more about I choose to care more about what I hear." And leave the rest to the engineer.

 

[arbiterusa]

Because it makes me happy

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.

 

[uncle woody]

The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many.

Yes, art.

 

[agedhorse]

Because it makes me happy

Not caring what the audience hears is a quick way to limit the opportunities to play out or play gigs where the audience matters.

That's been my experience over decades of mixing FOH. It's also why I ended up at the higher end of that market, where everybody cares what the audience hears because without a paying audience there's no money for a paycheck.

 

[CallMeAl]

Um, tone is in the fingers!

but seriously, I will always pick an amp I like the sound of, because I simply play better that way!

 

[Wasnex]

I'm a church sound guy so my experience and typical gig is not the norm.

Our PA carries everything but getting a bass to sound good in the room is a struggle if there is a bass amp on stage. FOH volume levels peak at 88-90 dBA in the room and the wash from the bass amp really messes up the sound.

This is pretty much the norm everywhere IMHO.

I was a professional bassist and also a professional audio tech. As a bassists I set up my rig so I could monitor at the lowest possible level to minimize degradation to house sound. I usually elevate my cab and tilt it back to aim at my ears. I also tend to EQ the sound be very bright so the tone is very clear and articulate where I am standing. I give the audio tech a DI straight off my bass, so the tone of my amp is not in the PA. I usually run the bass flat, but I might make small tone changes with the bass on occasion.

If I were using something like a PF50T to get a signature tone, I would prefer a mic on my cab as a post EQ DI is not going to give a very accurate representation of my sound unless I am running a full range flat response speaker. The sound from the DI will be much brighter than the sound coming from a traditional 1-way speaker.

As an audio tech I just do the best I can to make the bass sound clear and keep it from covering up everything else. If time allows during sound check, I like to come up on stage and listen to the players amps and talk tone concepts with the players for a few minutes. I use the info when I can, out of respect for the players.

Unfortunately, many times the best solution is simply to take the bass fader and push it all the way down, because there is so much stage wash coming from the bass amp and monitors, that it overpowers the mix before I even put any bass in the mains. A little secret, the sound coming from the stage is typically pretty awful by the time it gets to the mix location. This is due in part to something called a diffuse sound field and the fact that the mix position is typical beyond the critical distance. Terms are defined on this page: Sound Fields - acoustic glossary - article

Sometimes as an experiment during sound check, I will push the mains to see how much louder I need to mix in order to run bass in the system and make it sound nice. Typically I need to run the system at least 10-15dB hotter. This is way to loud for the audiences I mix for. It would be acceptable in some clubs, where loud music is expected, but your going to incur hearing damage fairly quickly, so it's not work I will take. Too loud for most bars IMHO, although many band run this loud.

A final aspect that I have not covered is things sound different when we are playing versus when we are listening. That is one of the reasons I like my tone to be really bright on stage. If I could be in two places at once, and simultaneously play bass and run sound, I would process my bass totally different for on stage monitoring versus the way I would process it for the main mix. IMHO the signal should be processed differently for each location and each purpose.

 

[Wasnex]

^ This. Taking a totally different approach to this discussion, why do we make music? I mean, clearly bass guitar doesn't get the love the regular guitar player gets and if you're going for best/most groupies, you're duking it out with the drummer. So why bother trying to get the best sound out there when 99% aren't going to notice/appreciate it (if it even gets to them, per the DI/lazy sound guy argument)?

Because it's art. I know I hate that label and I'm no fan of pretentiousness, but I think it's accurate (at least for some players and music). When I play bass, I'm not playing because it's a job or my sole source of income (but please, professional musicians let me know your thoughts) but because I enjoy it and there is an aesthetic component to my enjoyment. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't do it. The money is not that good, the hours can be crazy and let's not start ranting about band drama and drummers' ability to keep time. So it has to be about enjoying it.

I enjoy playing more when I think I sound good. And I think I sound best with my amp. Ideally, the sound guy, the FOH setup, and the overall vibe of a venue are great and everything that I hear onstage gets to the audience ears (at least the parts where I don't screw up too bad). Bringing my amp instead of just a DI means I can always be ready for the (occasional) opportunity where the stars align and everything is awesome. If the sound guy is lazy, the FOH setup sucks or something, there's only so much I can do. But at least I brought my A(mp) game.

IMHO the amp is to give you the warm fuzzies your looking for, but if you are playing for pay you need to also consider how your stage sound impacts the people who are paying you.

IMHO being a profession musician is usually more about providing a service than being an artist. Unfortunately if you are in it for artistic reasons you're probably going to be pretty frustrated and ultimately unsuccessful.

YMMV, but I have seen a lot of musicians who were super talented put down their axes when they faced this realization.

As far as lazy audio techs. From what I have seen there are plenty of awful audio techs, but the truth is it also very difficult to make many acoustic spaces sound good even under the best of circumstances, and usually the people in the band make it impossible by playing overly loud. Ultimately it can be very difficult to tell an incompetent tech from a competent tech when the situation presents a scenario where it is impossible to produce good sound.

This relates to providing a service. If you are only focused on how you sound, rather than how the entire band sounds, you will most likely insist on playing too loud and creating a situation where it is impossible to make you or the band sound its best.

Running pro sound is not typically about optimizing any one particular instrument, it's about striking a bunch of compromises that no one wants in order to improve the overall product. There is a priority though. In general the vocals and melody are going to be prioritized over the bass. The bass is typically more foundational in natures, so it needs to be present even if its not the center of everyone's attention.

People are so invested in their personal tone that they think it's sacrilege for the audio tech to modify it it in any way. But the audio tech is concerned about getting all of the instruments and voices to work together. To do this the audio tech must understand the concept of masking and then skillfully use frequency slotting and compression so everything fits on the mix. Unfortunately it seems many musicians are primarily focused on themselves and take the audio techs efforts as incompetence or even personal attacks.

Here's the thing. Creating a good mix is also an artistic endeavor. But many musicians think they should be able to call the shots and the audio tech should simply reproduce their sound only louder. First of all, reproducing your sound only louder is virtually impossible. Second of all, it's really not what the job calls for. A good audio tech does need to respect the core sound of the musicians and band, but also a certain amount of creative freedom is required to do a good job. I can guarantee that a fader monkey who only adjusts levels will not produce as good of a mix as someone who knows how to skillfully apply frequency slotting and compression.

If you don't believe me. I suggest you spend a few decades studying acoustics and learning how to mix. After you get a few years of experience, I am certain you will understand.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

There is an enormous selection of amps and cabs out in the market right now. The laws of competition dictate that every amp or cabinet needs to have something that makes it different or 'stand out' in order to appeal to a particular cohort of players. People describe a "Mesa" sound or "Ampeg" or "Aguilar" sound, etc, or some amps or cabs have particular features, like the voicing control on the Genzler amps, for example. Some amp designers even aim to stand out by making amps totally uncolored and neutral sounding.

When performing any gig that has FOH, the bass amp is essentially relegated to monitoring duty. The FOH engineer needs a sound that can be easily sculpted, EQ-wise at least, to sit appropriately in the mix. Given the different EQ needs of the house vs the stage, it makes sense then to send a DI signal that is Pre-EQ. I know this is not a universal solution but one opted for by many bassists and sound guys.

As I understand it, in most amps a pre-EQ signal essentially goes straight from the input jack to the DI, bypassing the circuitry that 'colors' or gives the particular 'flavor' of that amp to the signal (not to mention the organic tone shaping effect of the speaker that is essential to capturing the essence of many signature bass tones). Looking at the schematic for the Mesa D-800, for example, this seems to be the case. (Please correct me if I am wrong on these last two points) Assuming this is correct, coloration of the basic sound to the ears of any listener hearing only the sound from FOH is caused by the bass, any effects between and bass and amp such as a compressor, and finally by any inherent tone and EQ shaping done at the mixing board. The bass amp itself is just a conduit to the mixing board. The exception to this would be the transformers in certain DIs, such as the Jensen found in some high end bass amps like Demeter, or Cinemag (REDDI). Even then, there's not nearly as many options for transformer based coloration relative to the inherent 'flavor' of the many amps on the market.

To most of our audience then, our amplifier is essentially the PA system - something while not perfectly flat, is designed with transparency in sound amplification, not coloration.

My main question to you is this: given all of these factors, why do so many of us obsess over these nuances in tone of these different amps if that element of the sound doesn't make it to the audience?

Before you judge what I've written know that the situation I described is my own. I've just recently become really irked by it - I generally like the sound I get from my amp, but why wouldn't it be preferable to have a sound that is as close as possible to what the audience is hearing?

In light of all this, I understand why many players are moving to ampless setups and why speaker sims have gained in popularity. It's a reliable way to get that speaker coloration and baked-in amp tone to the FOH without the hassle of mic bleed and disparate EQ settings. Particularly for guys who do a fair amount of recording, especially with plug-ins, I can see why one would want to get that tone out into a live setting.

Thanks for reading. What is your take on all of this?

Good observation. I work with FOH support 99% of the time. I absolutely agree that when using FOH, your rig is now a personal monitor. That said, to keep from creating energy that the sound tech has to deal with to make the house sound good, one should use a flatter EQ, as opposed to booming ultra lows.