Help me understand

[agedhorse]

The amp isn't just a conduit for FoH. That idea would be based on a slightly narrow view of a bass player's world.
First, not every venue puts the bass through a PA. I've played a fair number of shows where the PA is for vocals only. Smaller bars, DIY shows, or the old school house party don't have big PAs.
Second, you are assuming way too much about the abilities and intentions of sound people at shows. Very few I've encountered spend more than a minute on the bass. They are balancing levels, getting rid of feed back, and moving on. In my world, I am one of 6 bands playing that night, so 0 Fs are given about my EQ.
Third, recording. Amps play a big part in the recording process. A lot of engineers are trying to get around using cabs because they don't know how to mic them, or they don't have the facilities. However, your head has your EQ and a DI built in most of the time. That makes their life easier.

A good sound guy shouldn't have to spend more than a minute on most inputs. In general I spend less than a minute on all inputs except acoustic instruments and vocals (which may get 2 minutes).

Why you may ask? Because when you do this all the time, you become very practiced and you have to be. On a show with 40 inputs, even spending what I suggested above results in almost an hour, time which is often not available. Things MUST move accurately and efficiently of it falls apart quickly. It has nothing to do with dissing the bass player or anyone else.

 

[mambo4]

When performing any gig that has FOH, the bass amp is essentially relegated to monitoring duty.

About 30% of my gigs had no FOH for my bass - so not "any gig" for sure. I like to be prepared for whatever.

most amps a pre-EQ signal essentially goes straight from the input jack to the DI, bypassing the circuitry that 'colors' or gives the particular 'flavor' of that amp to the signal

I only buy amps with pre/post EQ switch on the DI. My Genz Benz amps all do that. My old SWR WM 15 was 'clean' DI only. I don't know which is more common. Ultimately I'll trust the sound FOH person: If they want pre, I'll give them pre. I have plenty influence onstage to sound my best without stressing about downstream control.

 

[Bassdirty]

Not caring what the audience hears is a quick way to limit the opportunities to play out or play gigs where the audience matters.

That's been my experience over decades of mixing FOH. It's also why I ended up at the higher end of that market, where everybody cares what the audience hears because without a paying audience there's no money for a paycheck.

Amen Brudda.

I know playin out doesn't pay as good as it used to. BUT, maybe there's a connection to people who care more about their sound on stage (over the FOH sound), and low paying gigs?

We ALWAYS use a full PA.

I love it when it sounds great on stage (and it usually does), but if ..., for whatever bizarre reason, I had to choose only one to sound good (stage sound or FOH), Bet your A$$ it would always be FOH. Yes, I also play for fun and the joy it brings my own self. But I like playing in a band, with other people, for other people too. I also get much joy over seeing the crowd enjoy the music.

YMMV

T$

 

[byacey]

A good sound guy shouldn't have to spend more than a minute on most inputs. In general I spend less than a minute on all inputs except acoustic instruments and vocals (which may get 2 minutes).

Why you may ask? Because when you do this all the time, you become very practiced and you have to be. On a show with 40 inputs, even spending what I suggested above results in almost an hour, time which is often not available. Things MUST move accurately and efficiently of it falls apart quickly. It has nothing to do with dissing the bass player or anyone else.

Not only that, but usually some minor adjustments take place on the fly when the band starts playing together after setup and level checks.

 

[Zbysek]

There's another thing. Even when I've played rock or contemporary music at moderate volumes in smaller venues, there's a way of managing live sound, which I call the "chamber music" approach, where the instruments are primarily self sufficient, and are managing their dynamics and overall mix by ear. It can create a more intimate, dynamic setting. Much as I respect the value of a good sound tech, a full PA in a small venue can create kind of a wall between the band and the audience unless it's really expertly managed.

+1

 

[Wasnex]

The amp isn't just a conduit for FoH. That idea would be based on a slightly narrow view of a bass player's world.
First, not every venue puts the bass through a PA. I've played a fair number of shows where the PA is for vocals only. Smaller bars, DIY shows, or the old school house party don't have big PAs.
Second, you are assuming way too much about the abilities and intentions of sound people at shows. Very few I've encountered spend more than a minute on the bass. They are balancing levels, getting rid of feed back, and moving on. In my world, I am one of 6 bands playing that night, so 0 Fs are given about my EQ.
Third, recording. Amps play a big part in the recording process. A lot of engineers are trying to get around using cabs because they don't know how to mic them, or they don't have the facilities. However, your head has your EQ and a DI built in most of the time. That makes their life easier.

Yes, every situation is different. Obviously if the bass is not sent to the PA, the amp carries the room and is of primary importance. However this provides a situation that is perhaps more ironic for the player because under this circumstance, the amp should be adjusted to optimize sound in the house rather than where the bass player is standing. On most occasions when I play bass and I am not in the PA, the group leader goes out into the hall and tells me exactly what to do. More treble/less treble, more bass/less bass, and turn up/turn down. This is usually the circumstance when I hate my sound the most because I can't dial it in to what I want to hear.

Also, I think you are making an erroneous assumption about how long the audio tech works on your sound. Sure during sound check the audio tech may only spend a minute, but that is just a line check to make sure the signal is where it is supposed to be, there are no ground loops, and maybe some very course EQ settings. If the bass player is happy with his/her stage sound and I have what I need, a line check only takes a minute and there is no reason to waste more time. But that doesn't mean I am done with the bass. It's very likely I will come back to the bass again and again throughout the night and fine tune the sound as the situation changes.

 

[Spiky_Bassist]

IMHO the amp is to give you the warm fuzzies your looking for, but if you are playing for pay you need to also consider how your stage sound impacts the people who are paying you.

IMHO being a profession musician is usually more about providing a service than being an artist. Unfortunately if you are in it for artistic reasons you're probably going to be pretty frustrated and ultimately unsuccessful.

YMMV, but I have seen a lot of musicians who were super talented put down their axes when they faced this realization.

As far as lazy audio techs. From what I have seen there are plenty of awful audio techs, but the truth is it also very difficult to make many acoustic spaces sound good even under the best of circumstances, and usually the people in the band make it impossible by playing overly loud. Ultimately it can be very difficult to tell an incompetent tech from a competent tech when the situation presents a scenario where it is impossible to produce good sound.

This relates to providing a service. If you are only focused on how you sound, rather than how the entire band sounds, you will most likely insist on playing too loud and creating a situation where it is impossible to make you or the band sound its best.

Running pro sound is not typically about optimizing any one particular instrument, it's about striking a bunch of compromises that no one wants in order to improve the overall product. There is a priority though. In general the vocals and melody are going to be prioritized over the bass. The bass is typically more foundational in natures, so it needs to be present even if its not the center of everyone's attention.

People are so invested in their personal tone that they think it's sacrilege for the audio tech to modify it it in any way. But the audio tech is concerned about getting all of the instruments and voices to work together. To do this the audio tech must understand the concept of masking and then skillfully use frequency slotting and compression so everything fits on the mix. Unfortunately it seems many musicians are primarily focused on themselves and take the audio techs efforts as incompetence or even personal attacks.

Here's the thing. Creating a good mix is also an artistic endeavor. But many musicians think they should be able to call the shots and the audio tech should simply reproduce their sound only louder. First of all, reproducing your sound only louder is virtually impossible. Second of all, it's really not what the job calls for. A good audio tech does need to respect the core sound of the musicians and band, but also a certain amount of creative freedom is required to do a good job. I can guarantee that a fader monkey who only adjusts levels will not produce as good of a mix as someone who knows how to skillfully apply frequency slotting and compression.

If you don't believe me. I suggest you spend a few decades studying acoustics and learning how to mix. After you get a few years of experience, I am certain you will understand.

I absolutely agree. I'm not a professional musician trying to provide a service. If I were, whoever is signing the checks and calling the shots can tell me what sound he likes and I'll give that control over to the FOH. Having done some FOH work, I found it was not for me. As somewhat of a perfectionist, I realized rather quickly that I couldn't make everyone happy and felt perpetually frustrated (no matter how hard I worked at it). I could have spent decades getting better at it and improving, but realized I enjoy being an artist as a hobby much more than a musical service provider.

Even as a hobby artist, I like to believe I'm open to criticism or suggestions from FOH. The whole "altering MY TONE is sacrilege" thing is stupid. Unless you have the golden fingers of perfect sound given to you by years of hard work and the blessing of the tone goddess, there's more than likely room for improvement or just some modifications required to fit the space/venue of your performance.

Clearly, you are playing with a different class of drummer than I. Typically, the drummer in the bands I've been in get our "hand me downs."

It does depend on relative skill of bass and drums. I tend to only want to work with drummers I can consistently lock in with on a good groove. And with the groupie part...I was in a hard rock band where the drummer was only into guys. Might be a winning strategy for other hetero male bandmembers who are looking for a larger share of the female groupies.

 

[socialleper]

A good sound guy

That's a pretty important qualifier.

 

[socialleper]

Yes, every situation is different. Obviously if the bass is not sent to the PA, the amp carries the room and is of primary importance. However this provides a situation that is perhaps more ironic for the player because under this circumstance, the amp should be adjusted to optimize sound in the house rather than where the bass player is standing. On most occasions when I play bass and I am not in the PA, the group leader goes out into the hall and tells me exactly what to do. More treble/less treble, more bass/less bass, and turn up/turn down. This is usually the circumstance when I hate my sound the most because I can't dial it in to what I want to hear.

Also, I think you are making an erroneous assumption about how long the audio tech works on your sound. Sure during sound check the audio tech may only spend a minute, but that is just a line check to make sure the signal is where it is supposed to be, there are no ground loops, and maybe some very course EQ settings. If the bass player is happy with his/her stage sound and I have what I need, a line check only takes a minute and there is no reason to waste more time. But that doesn't mean I am done with the bass. It's very likely I will come back to the bass again and again throughout the night and fine tune the sound as the situation changes.

This starts to veer off into a well worn, but not completely on topic, gripe I have about live sound. It seems like every sound engineer I've come across at a venue, not an engineer touring with a band, gives zero Fs about the sound of the band. They get the levels where they want them and make the instruments, especially the bass sound like whatever they want. I get that they probably don't care too much. Why would they? It isn't like I have a choice, or the audience is truly going to notice. I also have no idea what I sound like to the audience until I hear a video later.
Whatever.
My point to the OP is that there are a lot of situations where the tone of your amp does matter. There are some where it doesn't, because the sound guy is just going to EQ you into a generic tone anyway.

 

[agedhorse]

That's a pretty important qualifier.

Yeah, like saying a GOOD bass player

This starts to veer off into a well worn, but not completely on topic, gripe I have about live sound. It seems like every sound engineer I've come across at a venue, not an engineer touring with a band, gives zero Fs about the sound of the band. They get the levels where they want them and make the instruments, especially the bass sound like whatever they want. I get that they probably don't care too much. Why would they? It isn't like I have a choice, or the audience is truly going to notice. I also have no idea what I sound like to the audience until I hear a video later.
Whatever.
My point to the OP is that there are a lot of situations where the tone of your amp does matter. There are some where it doesn't, because the sound guy is just going to EQ you into a generic tone anyway.

There are plenty of venues where the house guys are very well qualified (the last venue I worked is a good example) where experienced touring guys landed after coming off the road. Good venues attract good people, and most good people that I have ever worked with are looking for a good situation to end up at.

 

[Wasnex]

This starts to veer off into a well worn, but not completely on topic, gripe I have about live sound. It seems like every sound engineer I've come across at a venue, not an engineer touring with a band, gives zero Fs about the sound of the band. They get the levels where they want them and make the instruments, especially the bass sound like whatever they want. I get that they probably don't care too much. Why would they? It isn't like I have a choice, or the audience is truly going to notice. I also have no idea what I sound like to the audience until I hear a video later.
Whatever.
My point to the OP is that there are a lot of situations where the tone of your amp does matter. There are some where it doesn't, because the sound guy is just going to EQ you into a generic tone anyway.

If you were to ask every member of your band to produce a mix of one song, I bet all of the mixes would sound significantly different.

If you want to control the sound, become an audio tech. I guarantee that you will do the exact same thing as every other audio and mix the way you think is best. Also, you will probably learn that you typically don't have anywhere near as much control as you seem to think audio techs have. I ran sound for years and can only remember one room where I was really able to dial in everything to sound the way I wanted it to sound. It was a multi-purpose room in one of the schools on Incirlik Air Base in Turkey. I have no idea why it sounded so good, but it did.

For all the other gigs, I simply did the best I could and had to accept less than perfect results. Accepting less than perfection does not mean I don't care. I typically work continuously throughout a show making very subtle EQ adjustments as the music changes. This is actually what makes it fun. When the mix is great, there is nothing to do, so there is really no point in you even being there.

My advice is stop worrying so much about control and try to focus more on living in the moment and enjoying the music.

 

[Al Kraft]

I guess I've been lucky, but the majority of the sound techs I've worked with have been real pros. As for my bass amp and cab selection, my tone goal is to replicate what I enjoy hearing in good mix when I'm an audience member. With a good sound tech, what I hear on stage from my rig is likely close to what the audience will hear in the mix.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Totally great if you only play well-staffed, totally pro gigs with awesome sound-checks and the time they require. Most of us do not. I'm really happy for you but your example doesn't work for probably 90% of us.

LOL...you mis-understand @David Jayne. When we do sound checks, it's usually just a couple of members of the band who go out there and listen while playing through their wireless sets. Anybody can do that. You just have to show up and set up with enough time to play a couple of songs before the gig starts.

Even when we do use an FOH with sound guy, myself and one of the guitarists make a point of walking out onto the dance floor and beyond to do a sound check

I used to bitch about getting to a gig 2-hours before the start until I saw everything we had to do to get our PA set up. It's a couple of mains with 15" speakers and horn as well as 5 monitors, plus miking the drums if it's a big place. Packing it in and running all the wires takes a while. Then a couple of places started including dinner along with our fee, so we tried to be sure to be ready to go with enough time to eat before we start.

When we play festivals where there is a real "pro" sound crew we typically come in earlier in the day to set up our gear, they mic us, mic our amps and run DI's if they desire. They run levels individually first, and then run through a couple of songs for the sound check. Then we leave and come back in the evening at gig time.

By the way, if you are using your own mics (I prefer my Sennheiser E935 to the Shure SM58 that is usually supplied), don't leave your mics, bass, or guitars on the stage, especially if multiple groups are playing the same stage. It's just way too easy to have someone walk off with them and yes, I lost a mic to that once.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

In my experience, there is a whole lot of competition for space in the low mids. Basically the bass, guitars, keys, drums, and even vocals are playing in this frequency range, so I generally do quite a bit of carving to clear out space in the mix. I find this to be especially important for indoor gigs where reverberant energy tends to build up and make a boomy mess.

If I use the same system outdoors, I typically have to undo a lot of the carving or the sound comes across as too thin and mid scooped. So basically my EQ strategies are situational and I use my ears.

I am not opposed to the sound of a 250hz boost on the bass, I just think it tends to be problematic frequency to boost in many indoor venues. As long as you are going out in the hall and confirming it sounds good .

Yeah, I always do check. I've run that slight boost at 500Hz too, but there always seems to be more room in the mix at 250Hz than 500Hz. And it's not a lot of boost, just a little bit. And of course, ears are the final judge on any of that.

 

[byacey]

This starts to veer off into a well worn, but not completely on topic, gripe I have about live sound. It seems like every sound engineer I've come across at a venue, not an engineer touring with a band, gives zero Fs about the sound of the band. They get the levels where they want them and make the instruments, especially the bass sound like whatever they want. I get that they probably don't care too much. Why would they? It isn't like I have a choice, or the audience is truly going to notice. I also have no idea what I sound like to the audience until I hear a video later. Do you think a video someone took with their phone will be an accurate representation of how you sounded?
Whatever.
My point to the OP is that there are a lot of situations where the tone of your amp does matter. There are some where it doesn't, because the sound guy is just going to EQ you into a generic tone anyway.
Generic tone, like making the bass sound like a bass?

I think you're being a little condescending towards the sound production personnel. Many instances I would like to have made a band sound better than they did, but I was limited by the quality of the talent, the tone of the feeds they insisted on sending to front of house, and the qualities of their instruments / gear. Why blame the soundman for this?

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Clearly, you are playing with a different class of drummer than I. Typically, the drummer in the bands I've been in get our "hand me downs."


I'm just the opposite. I always offer the sound tech "Pre EQ or post?" for the DI. They always choose pre. And I know that's what they will choose, but I like to make them think it's their choice and that I'm working with them on my sound. That's because I know I have absolutely no control over what happens in that situation, and whether I go pre or post, the sound tech can make me sound great or sound like a box of wet rags. When you have FOH, you are not in control.

But to the original point: beyond just a "baked in" sound, one of the things that's important to me in a live situations is the feature set of controls and/or EQ that allow me to sculpt the sound to my liking, especially in those situations where I don't have FOH and I'm responsible for my own sound. The use of on-board high-pass filters (so I can take the boom out of the room), is something that I don't have one on my current rig, but it may be the reason I choose the next rig. It seems like such an obvious thing for bass players; you'd think they would be as common on bass amps as reverb is on a guitar amp.

I don't have anything marked "high pass filter" on my Eden amp, but in effect I actually do have one because with one of my 3 semi-parametric controls you can choose anywhere between 30Hz and 300Hz and I can cut the selected frequency by 15db. Actually, that's not really the same because it's a semi-parametric selection, not a shelving EQ. My Bass EQ is a shelving EQ and it cuts or boosts everything from 30Hz down. Usually if it's a boomy room, I turn that Bass EQ down a couple of clicks to see if that takes care of it.

If that doesn't take care of it, then I address it with my lowest semi-parametric control. I can find the offending frequency (or group of frequencies) pretty easily with that and then cut those. That's part of the dialing in the room that I'll do when I get a weird room. Not really the same as the HPF because the high-pass filter kills everything below your set frequency, but it works quite well when you get a boomy room.

 

[socialleper]

I think you're being a little condescending towards the sound production personnel. Many instances I would like to have made a band sound better than they did, but I was limited by the quality of the talent, the tone of the feeds they insisted on sending to front of house, and the qualities of their instruments / gear. Why blame the soundman for this?

That is probably the situation with most bands. I have good gear that I have spent years putting together. I want them to take my sound and just make it louder, but they usually make everyone sound the same. The bass loses it articulation and just become low end noise.
Every market is a little different. My experience might be different than others. The venues where I live are puppy mills. The quality of the venue facilities, staff, sound, band, etc don't matter. Just churn out a product. That's why no one like just going to rock clubs here any more. The venues are dives with over priced drinks, with a mish mash of bands that answered a phone call. The sound guys (when there is one) tend to react with the appropriate emotion; apathy.

 

[red_rhino]

I don't have anything marked "high pass filter" on my Eden amp, but in effect I actually do have one because with one of my 3 semi-parametric controls you can choose anywhere between 30Hz and 300Hz and I can cut the selected frequency by 15db. Actually, that's not really the same because it's a semi-parametric selection, not a shelving EQ. My Bass EQ is a shelving EQ and it cuts or boosts everything from 30Hz down. Usually if it's a boomy room, I turn that Bass EQ down a couple of clicks to see if that takes care of it.

If that doesn't take care of it, then I address it with my lowest semi-parametric control. I can find the offending frequency (or group of frequencies) pretty easily with that and then cut those. That's part of the dialing in the room that I'll do when I get a weird room. Not really the same as the HPF because the high-pass filter kills everything below your set frequency, but it works quite well when you get a boomy room.

I did something similar when I used an Eden Nav. It can indeed be very effective. I think it's such a common problem that I like the idea of having a feature dedicated to that specific function.

 

[agedhorse]

That is probably the situation with most bands. I have good gear that I have spent years putting together. I want them to take my sound and just make it louder, but they usually make everyone sound the same. The bass loses it articulation and just become low end noise.
Every market is a little different. My experience might be different than others. The venues where I live are puppy mills. The quality of the venue facilities, staff, sound, band, etc don't matter. Just churn out a product. That's why no one like just going to rock clubs here any more. The venues are dives with over priced drinks, with a mish mash of bands that answered a phone call. The sound guys (when there is one) tend to react with the appropriate emotion; apathy.

I think the venues you are talking about and experiencing are quite different from the venues @blacey and I are talking about. Generally, the smallest venue I worked in over the last 10 years of my career was 1000 seats and went up from there. I specialized in the 1000 - 4000 seat venues for the most part. With the amount of money changing hands over ticket sales (could be from $25k to $250k), things are handled very differently from your description. Starting with load-in between 9am and noon for a 8pm show. A 14 hour day at our pay scale results in a different level of cooperation (usually).

 

[retslock]

If you are going through the FOH your amp is just your monitor. Set it how you like but not so loud that it spills into the vocal mikes or overpowers the PA.
The FOH person doesn’t have your ears or taste so it’s a lucky dip there. You have to trust them. My approach usually is a clean signal to the PA and then I try to get the sound I want for my ears onstage mitigated by room acoustics, then I get on with making music. I don’t worry about what I can’t control.