How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?

[Son of Wobble]

Yeah BTW I think the thread questioned whether these artists are capable of writing the whole song alone, no one questions they are capable of writing the whole structure of the vocal line but in my book who writes the arrangement is an "author", not a "producer".

To reiterate, Madonna has sole authorship on five of the eight songs on her first album, when her ability to muscle credit would presumably have been weakest. So she answered the question with her first album.

I agree that a producer and arranger can and often does make an incalculable contribution to a recording.
As to what is in your "book," well, I can only say I have not had the pleasure.

 

[Polkatronixx]

Easy to jump to the conclusion that sexism is behind the dismissals but I’m not convinced. Madonna chose to work the “sex kitten” persona and image to her advantage from the start. It’s pretty much inevitable that anyone who does that and who doesn’t also demonstrate an obvious musical talent is going to be labelled as being not much more than a pretty face. George Michael (for example) suffered from the same sorts of unfair judgments.

Well, the person I was responding to mentioned Taylor Swift in addition to Madonna. And I've seen similar about Beyonce (I remember lots of righteous indignation when Beck lost out to her at some award show). It's common with female artists - they have to work harder. And forums like this are notoriously sexist. Not saying TB is, necessarily, but it's a common hazard.

Edit: and I think Madonna's recorded output is more then enough evidence of 'obvious musical talent'.

 

[NOVAX]

Both of them had access to one mind in common, and said person's name is Patrick Leonard. I think they excelled at absorbing what was around them. Knick. Knack. Knick. Plus Quincy, Nile Rodgers etc.

 

[LBS-bass]

Here are two videos:




Same song but they sound nothing alike; the chords aren't even exactly the same. The songwriter credit doesn't change just because someone takes a song and rearranges it. But I'm always surprised at how many people think that David Byrne wrote this song.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Easy to jump to the conclusion that sexism is behind the dismissals but I’m not convinced. Madonna chose to work the “sex kitten” persona and image to her advantage from the start. It’s pretty much inevitable that anyone who does that and who doesn’t also demonstrate an obvious musical talent is going to be labelled as being not much more than a pretty face. George Michael (for example) suffered from the same sorts of unfair judgments.

Well, Joni Mitchell made early classics, and also went on to make Mingus. And they still write on Talk Bass that without a pretty face, she would never have been noticed. What does a girl have to do???

 

[bass12]

Madonna will not be remembered for writing all of her songs. She didn't write them all. Edit: Not the entire song with sole credit.

I like to think of Madonna and Britney as both being manufactured. In those two cases, the lines are forever blurred in terms of defining their actual talent vs. the contribution of the dozens (of people) that actually created the image/ songs/ choreography/ publicity, and the rest.

I don’t know the full inside story where Madonna is concerned but everything I know about her leads me to believe that she has, from the get-go, been the driving force behind her career. I’m not saying that she would have made it without the work of others but she is, by all accounts, an extremely driven person who knows what she wants and does the necessary work to get there. If she’s “manufactured” then she would have had a big hand in that manufacturing.

 

[Polkatronixx]

Both of them had access to one mind in common, and said person's name is Patrick Leonard. I think they excelled at absorbing what was around them. Knick. Knack. Knick.

You mean the Patrick Leonard that didn't work with Madonna until her THIRD album?

 

[LBS-bass]

Well, Joni Mitchell made early classics, and also went on to make Mingus. And they still write on Talk Bass that without a pretty face, she would never have been noticed. What does a girl have to do???

Exactly. To be fair, there are number of people who have never looked beyond the folksinger pigeonhole that Joni was placed into early on. But they still have opinions

 

[oZZma]

Actually, who writes the arrangement is an arranger. By your logic, every cover version ever recorded that wasn't a note-for-note reproduction would require a revision to authorship.

Re-arranging an existing song with substantial changes would make you co-author of that version. Not legally. Morally.
The idea that a vocal line alone is "a song" in its completeness is something only bureaucrats could conceive.

ETA: by your logic, instrumental bands are mere "arrangers". Let alone drummers. Total B-musicians, they can't do any melody.

 

[NOVAX]

You mean the Patrick Leonard that didn't work with Madonna until her THIRD album?

Yup! He was busy with Michael.

 

[LBS-bass]

Re-arranging an existing song with substantial changes would make you co-author of that version. Not legally. Morally.
The idea that a vocal line alone is "a song" in its completeness is something only bureaucrats could conceive.

OK, tell that to Al Green and David Byrne. I never heard them complaining. It's literally done all the time. We have a whole thread about covers and originals here and none of those covers ever changed someone's songwriting credit, but a lot of them made some good money for the songwriter.

 

[NOVAX]

Working on the fireproof hair products. Reggie Lucas was the debut brain drain - then Nile and Tony Thompson on the sophomore. Then PL. Madge is a musical sponge. Just sayin'

 

[Polkatronixx]

Yup! He was busy with Michael.

I'm not so sure of that (the MJ bit - I don't know if Leonard ever worked with MJ, but not at the time Madonna was recording her first two albums).

And the fact that Madonna wrote and recorded two huge albums before ever working with Leonard proves she is not successful because of him.

 

[bass12]

Well, the person I was responding to mentioned Taylor Swift in addition to Madonna. And I've seen similar about Beyonce (I remember lots of righteous indignation when Beck lost out to her at some award show). It's common with female artists - they have to work harder. And forums like this are notoriously sexist. Not saying TB is, necessarily, but it's a common hazard.

Edit: and I think Madonna's recorded output is more then enough evidence of 'obvious musical talent'.

The albums themselves are not necessarily evidence of anything other than the fact that the records were made. How much of a role Madonna played in the making of her albums is a big part of what’s being disputed in this thread.

 

[NOVAX]

I'm not so sure of that (the MJ bit - I don't know if Leonard ever worked with MJ, but not at the time Madonna was recording her first two albums).

And the fact that Madonna wrote and recorded two huge albums before ever working with Leonard proves she is not successful because of him.

Ok if Patrick Leonard didn't play on the victory tour then I'll eat a dead raw fish head. Two huge albums at the intellectual expense of Reggie Lucas and Nile Rogers -thank you

 

[bass12]

Well, Joni Mitchell made early classics, and also went on to make Mingus. And they still write on Talk Bass that without a pretty face, she would never have been noticed. What does a girl have to do???

I don’t remember ever encountering that here but there are always bound to be some people who take such an attitude. And, hey, they might be right. It’s not as if sexism hasn’t been rampant in the music industry...

 

[NOVAX]

So basically my answer to the OP's question is: typically by brain-draining the people, musicians, artists, poets, producers-whatever that are around them. It's a cruel world.
I am cynical yes but there you have it!

Peace

 

[SLPimp]

Pen. Paper. Maybe pencil.

 

[Son of Wobble]

So basically my answer to the OP's question is: typically by brain-draining the people, musicians, artists, poets, producers-whatever that are around them. It's a cruel world.
I am cynical yes but there you have it!

Peace

I think that is quite true, actually.
But again, this caliber of artist who manages to keep going across decades is a special kind of vampire.

An analogy: My filmmaker friend Nina Menkes made a film called "The Great Sadness of Zohara" that got her a request for a visit from Werner Herzog, who interviewed her in detail about her remote and arcane African locations, which he then visited and photographed in his subsequent film. Nina, a Werner Fangirl, was crushed by wiser for it.

 

[Polkatronixx]

Ok if Patrick Leonard didn't play on the victory tour then I'll eat a dead raw fish head. Two huge albums at the intellectual expense of Reggie Lucas at Nile Rogers -thank you

Oh...so a guy playing on a Jacksons concert tour means he somehow was instrumental (no pun intended) in MJ's success as a solo artist?

Off the Wall and Thriller are mainly MJ and Quincy Jones - and studio hacks, of course (like most of Toto, for example).

And Madonna wrote most of the songs on her first two albums (whether alone or with co-writers). But I guess if you don't rate her and someone you do respect was in the studio at that same time, it CLEARLY was really all the work of the other guy.