How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?

[NOVAX]

How could I have imagined, mid-seventies, that the Fleetwood Mac record on the car radio was recorded kitty-corner from the Tommy Burger in my hand?
How many Tommy Burgers did Nirvana eat while cutting Nevermind there?

The real question answered was how many Quaaludes did Stevie Nicks leave behind the Ausperger monitors in studio A ? The answer is one.

 

[Son of Wobble]

The real question answered was how many Quaaludes did Stevie Nicks leave behind the Ausperger monitors in studio A ? The answer is one.

Only after trying heroically to retrieve it, I'd wager

 

[NOVAX]

I'm missed Kurt by just a year.
I was there in 95/96 - Johnny freaking Cash.

 

[oZZma]

That's not what I said at all, please don't put words in my mouth. I personally don't care for the idea that melody is the end all and be all of songwriting. I think chord structure and what is laid over that in terms of melodic content are equally important. If you think that I'm sitting at home writing melodies and handing that over to someone to write chords under, they you're wrong. That's not songwriting, that's collaborating in songwriting.

Instrumental bands develop structures and overlay arrangements on them, just like vocal bands do. Where you got the idea I thought otherwise is not clear.

Oh the idea comes from the statement that arranging is not "co-authoring".

 

[NOVAX]

The point is I assisted on this weird session one time, and the song writer had this cool song that I couldn't help but like and take on -I never tried to record it or use it -but I have it in my parts catalog- anyway that's my point. I'm like a cannibal. I'm a bone collector.

 

[LBS-bass]

I worked at Sound City. That's my name drop. Thanks Polka. I'm better without it. I agree Madge and MJ are real genius. As far as knicking? I really can only reference my own personal ability to lift and for lack of a better term -rip off -because I can- not because I want to. Does that make any sense?

I think we all have influences. I like the "anxiety of influence" concept, myself, because most of us go through that nagging sense that there's maybe something a little too familiar about something we're doing. Every now and then we might pull an inadvertent George Harrison and write My Sweet Lord, but hopefully if we do that someone tells us before we record it

 

[Son of Wobble]

I'm missed Kurt by just a year.
I was there in 95/96 - Johnny freaking Cash.

I forgot Sound City had a Taco Bell at the end of the block in those days. So I bet Nirvana rarely made it all the way under the freeway to Tommy's.

Johnny Cash, amazing! Legend sightings in the valley, Hmmm... I saw John Lee Hooker live with Canned Heat off Ventura Blvd, $5 for my front row table, and no drink minimum (I was too young to order in any case).

My Dad's friend met Tom Waits once at a thrift shop in the valley, and after chatting a bit, asked, "How come you don't talk in that same growly fashion you sing?" And Tom said, "Eh, that's just my act."

 

[LBS-bass]

Oh the idea comes from the statement that arranging is not "co-authoring".

It's not. Are you seriously telling me that David Byrne should get a writing credit for his version of Take Me to the River? Do you not see what moral and ethical lapses are inherent in that notion?

If that's the "ethical" stance then what is to stop any songwriter from inserting himself (or herself) into, say, Yesterday by the Beatles and then assuming rights whenever someone streams the Beatles version? Or even when someone streams a later version, that was done after they "co-wrote" thiers? How do we know which version inspired that first version, anyway? How many "co-authors" will Yesterday eventually pick up?

It's an arrangement credit precisely for this reason. Someone did work around someone's existing song structure and they get paid, in one way or another, for that work. Just like a session player comes in and plays a solo as a work for hire.

 

[Son of Wobble]

I think we all have influences. I like the "anxiety of influence" concept, myself, because most of us go through that nagging sense that there's maybe something a little too familiar about something we're doing. Every now and then we might pull an inadvertent George Harrison and write My Sweet Lord, but hopefully if we do that someone tells us before we record it

I surrendered some years ago to the realization that in everything new I loved -- Elliot Smith, Teenage Fanclub, Nirvana -- I was simply once again and inevitably hearing echoes of the Fab Four

 

[ElectroVibe]

Steely Dan deserve more songwriting credit than Madonna. Why? Because they are men.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Dylan used a co-writer for the whole of the Desire album. Dylan, of course, just sold his whole catalogue for 300 million, and now the estate of Jacques Levy, said co-writer, is seeking recompense.

Somewhat germane to this convo is Dylan's "Work for hire" assertion in denying the claim for further compensation.



Bob Dylan Sued by Co-Writer Jacques Levy's Estate Over Catalog Sale - Variety

The estate’s lawyers, representing Levy’s widow, Claudia Levy, are asking for $1.75 million as their fair share of the catalog sale, plus $2 million in punitive damages. They arrived at the $1.75 million figure by looking at the reported $300 million sale and then breaking it down by the estimated 600 songs that are pat of the overall Dylan catalog, and figuring what the share would be for the 10 that Levy co-wrote.

Certain to be part of any defense Dylan’s camp mounts is the fact that Levy’s contributions were contracted on a “work for hire” basis. The Levy suit mentions this, but contends that it was an “atypical” work-for-hire situation.

 

[LBS-bass]

The point is I assisted on this weird session one time, and the song writer had this cool song that I couldn't help but like and take on -I never tried to record it or use it -but I have it in my parts catalog- anyway that's my point. I'm like a cannibal. I'm a bone collector.

OK, don't feel bad about that. Sometimes when I start writing I know I'm taking inspiration from an existing song. There might be something about that song, maybe a rhythmic feel, maybe a play of intervals, that I can take as an inspirational start point.

But the song I end up writing is not that song; it's a new song that was sparked into being by a different song. I don't know if that makes any sense. The most recent song I wrote had its rhythmic genesis in a very different song that it sounds nothing like, but I know what the inspiration for my song was. I also know that if I played both songs back to back, you would not see any resemblance between them. It's far better to know what you're inspired by than not

 

[drumvsbass]

One doesn't need to be a virtuoso instrumentalist to write songs.

 

[bass12]

Steely Dan deserve more songwriting credit than Madonna. Why? Because they are men.

More likely because no one would have any interest in Becker or Fagen if it wasn’t for their songwriting ability. This has clearly not been the case with Madonna.

 

[oZZma]

It's an arrangement credit precisely for this reason.

Except, they don't get any credit. The authorship of the arrangement is not declared anywhere in most pop records.
Call it as you like, that's still part of the writing. Especially in stuff like Michael Jackson's all based on grooves, it's often more distinctive than the vocal line itself.
MJ "sole author". ROTFL

 

[LBS-bass]

Except, they don't get any credit. The authorship of the arrangement is not declared anywhere in most pop records.
Call it as you like, that's still part of the writing. Especially in stuff like Michael Jackson's all based on grooves, it's often more distinctive than the vocal line itself.
MJ "sole author". ROTFL

Sigh. They often get credit as "producer" if that's their primary role, and it usually is. If it isn't then yes, they will get a separate arrangement credit. If they are covering the song in their own band then they just get the mechanical royalties for their own version, they don't get songwriting royalties for any of it, and if they hired an arranger to create it then they negotiate what they see fit with that person. Maybe a credit, maybe a payment, maybe a percentage, maybe two or all of those things.

 

[LBS-bass]

Sigh. They often get credit as "producer" if that's their primary role, and it usually is. If it isn't then yes, they will get a separate arrangement credit.

Anyway, nice chatting with you. Whatever song you end up writing, i'm looking forward to hearing the 12 new co-author version you end up with once it's been covered 12 times .

 

[oZZma]

Sigh. They often get credit as "producer" if that's their primary role, and it usually is. If it isn't then yes, they will get a separate arrangement credit.

Never seen an "arrangement" credit in my entire life. I should check on my brother's records who wrote the bassline for Billie Jean
And producer is ambiguous and not necessarily linked to arrangement/authorship.

 

[oZZma]

Anyway, nice chatting with you. Whatever song you end up writing, i'm looking forward to hearing the 12 new co-author version you end up with once it's been covered 12 times .

Oh I am so convinced of what I'm saying that although I'm the "sole writer" of all the song structures I'm sharing the authorship 50/50 with my drummer. Go figure. And I also give the directions for the drums

 

[Son of Wobble]

Never seen an "arrangement" credit in my entire life. I should check on my brother's records who wrote the bassline for Billie Jean
And producer is ambiguous and not necessarily linked to arrangement/authorship.

Folk musicians were big on "Arrangement by" credits. I believe you will find "Traditional, arrangement by" on early Dylan albums, as well as those by other folkies.