I wonder if Becker and Fagen paid a royalty to William Burroughs.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?
- Thread starter ElectroVibe
- Start date
I don't own any record of this genre.
Seems legit. That's how it should be.
Oh I am so convinced of what I'm saying that although I'm the "sole writer" of all the song structures I'm sharing the authorship 50/50 with my drummer. Go figure. And I also give the directions for the drums
Just be prepared that when Jose Feliciano covers your composition, you're going to give 25% of the publishing to Jim Morrison, who contributed by one couplet, and is only going to drink the money away in any case. "Funeral pyre" indeed
And the 25% of the 0.00 $ I will earn with my music is big money!
Liner notes are extinct, of course. So few youngin's are going to know who Fagen and Becker are, let alone their players. "Which one is Dan" is likely the question ahead when the band finally enjoy a Tiktok revival
Back in the 50's and 60's DJ's and mob guys got writing credits, Alan Freed, Morris Levy and squeaky clean Dick Clark might have been the sleeziest of all.
I was in a band that was on the verge of breaking through. The two principals, the lead singer and the guitarists, were so concerned about song writing credits (lyrics and music) and publishing rights that anytime me or the drummer came up with anything it was automatically thrown out. I eventually quit. The band tanked. I find it amusing that people are so caught up in fame - even when they are nobodies - that they never get there.
Here's one time the "arrangement guy" won all the marbles...
This song was a massive hit, and built around the Andrew Oldham's arrangement
for strings of the Stones's "The Last Time."
After years of wrangling, Oldham ended up with 100% of the publishing from the song.
Intellectual property law is interesting. Most people do not understand it. For patents, you protect and idea, not the product. Music is similar. For example, tomorrow I could file and receive a patent that says the dirt dug up in a certain space in the woods owned by my neighbor is the cure for cancer. I need no proof. I don't have to prove it works! I don't have to do anything. Let's say Pfizer comes over, pays my neighbor for their dirt, spends $4 billion in testing and development and wishes to sell the dirt. Guess who owns all the rights and has to approve any use or sale? Me. You patent an idea, you copyright a song. Who actually puts it to work, makes it popular, etc. has nothing to do with ownership of that idea or song. Most people do not understand this.
He also noodled on sax. He would often bring full demos to sessions, including on Blackstar.
You are drastically simplifying this. Patents don't protect an idea, they protect inventions. You have to "reduce the idea to practice" (yes, I am a lawyer). True, you don't necessarily have to prove it, but you need to go through a pretty difficult process to actually get a patent issued, including overcoming prior art, showing non-obviousness, etc. There is not a single intellectual property protection that protects an "idea." Even trade secrets need to be reduced to some practical form of know-how to be protectible.
You clearly have bias against the man’s music. Based on grooves? While his songs generally have very strong grooves, they are driven by his vocals, and other melodic hooks.
I read this whole thread, and it seems to have drifted from "how did they write their songs" to "do they deserve their superstardom".
They wrote by collaborating with the best talent they could afford at any given time. The credit is assigned contractually, or bestowed by the artist (with regards to original compositions). Whether they are accomplished on an instrument is irrelevant to the songwriting process. Communication of ideas is the key, and though being able to play may speed things up, it's not essential.
Can a person, who can't type or spell correctly, write poetry? Absolutely.
The staying power of Michael and Madge prove their talent (and their smarts!). Whatever point they started at, they got better at communicating their ideas and thoughts as time went by. They also surrounded themselves with people who were better at understanding these ideas, and translating them into finished product, or, alternately, pushing back with differing opinions and challenges, with the intent of coaxing a better performance from the artist (see QJ).
But the star is the star, everything else is a supporting role. If you're someone's "musical director", then your job is to dictate what the other musicians play, whether it's your original idea or someone else's.
I have an acquaintance who was Barry White's MD for many years, and scored out all those soaring string parts in Barry's most popular hits, but you won't see him getting a writing credit because that's not (wasn't) in his contract. Kinda the same with Steely Dan.
Session men and guest artists took that music over the top, but didn't expect writing credit. They took their pay, let their talent speak for itself, and fortunately received liner note exposure.
In the long run, it doesn't matter if compositional ideas are communicated traditionally via a score, or simply by humming a part or commenting on what someone's noodling (ala Fagen " make it bouncy" or "make it juicier") it's the same creative process that's done in secret, kept in secret, and the contracts and the management company determine what becomes public info.
For the uninitiated out there "Yes, this business sucks."
I am one of those people but after reading through this thread, I get what you guys are saying. I always thought it was unfair that others who significantly shape a song don't get writing credit...but what about when someone does a cover of that song and it sounds completely different? They shouldn't get song writing credit for that cover version.
Respectably, you are not correct. A patent is an idea. It is intellectual property. It is an art, concept, design, advance. An idea does not have to be reduced to practice to be issued. At least in the way you are implying. Constructive reduction to practice: Occurs upon the filing of a patent application on the claimed invention. Brunswick Corp. v. U.S., 34 Fed. Cl. 532, 584 (1995). In reality, no one would willy-nilly patent without thinking it works because others could show that your idea was not well-thought out and have it nullified. Patenting an idea is a fairly expensive and complex process. Trade secrets are NOT particularly protectable, although one could be charged with espionage or theft for sharing trade secrets.
As you say, getting a patent is a long process. The biggest hurdle in getting a patent is non-obviousness and novelty. Most patents are 100% worthless and the factual content in most patents is sketchy. It does not matter unless said patent is questioned or infringed.
Unlike you, I am not a lawyer, but I hold over 30 US Patents and teach this stuff.
One of my favorite bands. I'd suggest reading Mike Doughty's Book of Drugs for some insight on what went down. He shared quite a bit about being the young guy producing the songs, while the more seasoned musicians in the band trash talked him. There were definitely different views on how that band should function and who deserved credit held by the members.
