How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?

[Son of Wobble]

Yes I do all my own vocals.

Since you asked. Here is my original version of "Desire" with me playing and singing all parts:

http://louiethelovemuffin.com/music/mp3s/Desire 2 mix.mp3

And here's the band version:

Wow, what a gorgeous song. I've heard a number of your songs posted on TB, this is definitely a favorite. Such great chord changes, and the way you easily negotiate them made me think of Sandy Denny, which is highest praise from this quarter.
As the versions, and to mention Sandy Denny again, I prefer her solo piano versions to some of the orchestrations on the Fairport Convention LPs. But there is room for both. Hot jazbo playing on the redux, for sure... Although the break is a digression from your song, a distraction, arguably, rather than an amplification of the song's energy. But then it like a jazz band soloing around standards, isn't it. They jump off from there and often go on long digressions....

Anyway, all the money IMHO is in the demo version, your voice is just so gorge, and that the parts where you sing about your burning desire were sexy. You really convey the feeling of deep enchantment with someone. And the complex melody implies complex love. Doesn't need fairlight strings.

On the credit question, I think savvy advice would have been to part out the rights so that you retained the original while giving them usage for their "jazz version." Since you granted permission, you weren't robbed, but it sounds like you were manipulated/guilted into.
Worth getting the rights back... Or just assert the right by putting your version out there. If they complain spit fire.

Again, beautiful song!

 

[LBS-bass]

Wow, what a gorgeous song. I've heard a number of your songs posted on TB, this is definitely a favorite. Such great chord changes, and the way you easily negotiate them made me think of Sandy Denny, which is highest praise from this quarter.
As the versions, and to mention Sandy Denny again, I prefer her solo piano versions to some of the orchestrations on the Fairport Convention LPs. But there is room for both. Hot jazbo playing on the redux, for sure... Although the break is a digression from your song, a distraction, arguably, rather than an amplification of the song's energy. But then it like a jazz band soloing around standards, isn't it. They jump off from there and often go on long digressions....

Anyway, all the money IMHO is in the demo version, your voice is just so gorge, and that the parts where you sing about your burning desire were sexy. You really convey the feeling of deep enchantment with someone. And the complex melody implies complex love. Doesn't need fairlight strings.

On the credit question, I think savvy advice would have been to part out the rights so that you retained the original while giving them usage for their "jazz version." Since you granted permission, you weren't robbed, but it sounds like you were manipulated/guilted into.
Worth getting the rights back... Or just assert the right by putting your version out there. If they complain spit fire.

Again, beautiful song!

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. I wish I could still sing like that. All that was done in single takes, no way I do that these days. Maybe if I really worked hard I could get back something close, but I just don't have a reason to work toward that these days.

I don't think those guys would bug me about rights if push came to shove. There was a ton of acrimony in that band over this and that; people actually got sued. I tried to stay out of the fray and was largely successful, but we're all friends again now through the magic of time and social media. Funny how time fixes things.

As far as being sexy... man... that song... I was totally and completely smitten with a guy I knew who did not have the time of day for me beyond just the stuff we needed to do in our regular life together. Turned out he was gay. Life is weird

 

[Son of Wobble]

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. I wish I could still sing like that. All that was done in single takes, no way I do that these days. Maybe if I really worked hard I could get back something close, but I just don't have a reason to work toward that these days.

I don't think those guys would bug me about rights if push came to shove. There was a ton of acrimony in that band over this and that; people actually got sued. I tried to stay out of the fray and was largely successful, but we're all friends again now through the magic of time and social media. Funny how time fixes things.

As far as being sexy... man... that song... I was totally and completely smitten with a guy I knew who did not have the time of day for me beyond just the stuff we needed to do in our regular life together. Turned out he was gay. Life is weird

I would be surprised if there were NOT a love story behind the song; you vocal really conveys, and betrays, such personal conviction. Part of what makes the songs so fine, I suppose.

Just cracked this fine vintage under the influence of your tune...

 

[LBS-bass]

Beautiful song.

 

[Son of Wobble]

One of my favorite Madge songs just came to mind.
Written by Madonna and Dave Hall.
Love the orchestration, too.

 

[Son of Wobble]

fun mashup

 

[jerry]

My favorite Madonna project, this one with William Orbit, the whole album is excellent.

 

[2tonic]

What is wrong with being honest that my post contains heresy?? Do you really think that invalidates the information I'm including?

If you prefer, I could in the future state my 3rd party information as though they are facts that I personally can vouch for. In general though, I would have thought that people would appreciate honesty.

To be more specific, since that seems to matter to you, I am basing the Jackson information on his own copyright trial where he had to prove that he wrote a certain song, and he explained and demonstrated how he sang each part, note for not perfectly, to each musician.

The madonna information is collected from producers, session musicians, and from articles about her former backup singer who sued the label (and/or madonna herself) because she claimed the voice all over the specified song was hers, not madonna's, when it's extremely easy to tell what madonna sounds like compared to a fantastic backup singer.

I think @Herrick 's use of the emoji was to signal that we're not sure if you meant heresy (gasp!) , or hearsay.

 

[dabis]

Slightly off-topic (or not), I've always found this thing hilarious:

 

[leegreenman]

"Based on grooves" may be an exaggeration but "driven by vocals" is an exaggeration as well. When you hear MJ's hits (Off the Wall/Thriller era, don't know the rest) it's difficult to say what was written first, if vocals or the instrumental stuff, because the arrangement is so creative/distinctive it's as prominent as the vocal line. So not giving it authorship dignity IMO is totally wrong.
Just to say how arrangement is not a minor issue in the writing. It's not like a cherry you put on a cake when it's ready. It's an ingredient of the cake.

I definitely would not refer to arrangement as a minor aspect of the equation, but I view it as distinct from songwriting. I do agree that arrangement and production are essential to the success of the final product though.

 

[dabis]

In my opinion, author or writer is the one who creates an idea from scratch. All the others members that are adding things to the idea are not the writers, but producers, arrangers, musicians,... they all depend on the original idea. Do they deserve credit? Of course, of the final creation, but not as a writers.

 

[bass12]

My favorite Madonna project, this one with William Orbit, the whole album is excellent.

I’m a William Orbit fan but I’ve never actually listened to the whole album he produced with Madonna. Like her or dislike her, Madonna’s ability to remain present on the pop landscape is both remarkable and commendable. It’s easy to take her success for granted but she has been able to do what very few have. Quite amazing, really.

 

[Polkatronixx]

I’m a William Orbit fan but I’ve never actually listened to the whole album he produced with Madonna. Like her or dislike her, Madonna’s ability to remain present on the pop landscape WAS both remarkable and commendable. It’s easy to take her success for granted but she has been able to do what very few have. Quite amazing, really.

FTFY

 

[bass12]

In my opinion, author or writer is the one who creates an idea from scratch. All the others members that are adding things to the idea are not the writers, but producers, arrangers, musicians,... they all depend on the original idea. Do they deserve credit? Of course, of the final creation, but not as a writers.

I think it depends on what is added. Since it’s right there in my avatar I’ll use Grace Jones’ “Slave To The Rhythm” as an example. The original version (written by Bruce Woolley and Simon Darlow) sounds completely different from the single version (for which the producers received writing credit, along with Woolley and Darlow). In this case I don’t see a problem with the credits being expanded.

Original:

Single version:

 

[bass12]

FTFY

“Was”? Her last album did quite well, apparently: Madonna Achieves Ninth No. 1 Album on Billboard 200 Chart With 'Madame X'

 

[LBS-bass]

In my opinion, author or writer is the one who creates an idea from scratch. All the others members that are adding things to the idea are not the writers, but producers, arrangers, musicians,... they all depend on the original idea. Do they deserve credit? Of course, of the final creation, but not as a writers.

Indeed; there are a lot of session players who would be demanding a lot of writing credits were it otherwise. The lines can get a little blurry in those other roles because producers often arrange, as do the writers themselves, and writers often produce, or co-produce, and so on.

Much of what gets credited as what when it comes to these other roles probably depends on who was hired to do what, by whom. If I hire session musicians to play basic rhythmic tracks and solos and I use those tracks, they get instrumental credits. I've never hired a producer to do anything, so the closest I've come to that is the track I posted above, where I gave my collaborator credit for arranging and co-producing, given that he added his tracks and then mixed down that version of the song and delivered it fully mixed.

The version I'm reworking, which will mostly have his lines played by a different instrumentalist, will give him an arrangement credit but not a production credit, which seems fair. I also want to point out that I didn't hire him to do anything, this was a friendly, for-fun collaboration and I'm now paying him as an arranger because I want to use his work on that arrangement in a more serious way.

I suppose people who don't have the skills to produce music themselves would view a good producer as a one-stop shop for all of that skill. I don't work for a label, and it's my stuff, and it's really just an expensive hobby, so I end up doing most of the production, by default.

To me, the concept of "production" casts a pretty large net, in terms of what a producer might do. There are songs I've produced that I didn't play any instrument on (other than voice) but which stayed pretty true to the demo version as written that I did play on, like the one in my current signature. Production decisions involve things like deciding which players to hire and which tracks to use; in that case I ended up hiring another bass player because the song needed a bit more funky stuff that I am capable of doing myself, splicing together two of three bass tracks that I'd been sent, and requesting another brief organ pad to go in below the chorus section between the two solos. But the form of the song didn't change much from what I had already laid onto the bones and sent to the session guys. They added their skill and polish to bring existing ideas to life.

I'm sure I'm not the only person on here producing their own music; it'd be interesting if anyone else would like to post some examples of pre- and post-production work and describe what the process was like, as we all work differently.

 

[LBS-bass]

I think it depends on what is added. Since it’s right there in my avatar I’ll use Grace Jones’ “Slave To The Rhythm” as an example. The original version (written by Bruce Woolley and Simon Darlow) sounds completely different from the single version (for which the producers received writing credit, along with Woolley and Darlow). In this case I don’t see a problem with the credits being expanded.

Original:

Single version:

That's a pretty dramatic difference. I think as long as everyone involved in the songwriting is happy with the way it's credited, it's appropriate.

 

[dkelley]

I think @Herrick 's use of the emoji was to signal that we're not sure if you meant heresy (gasp!) , or hearsay.

Oh.



So I can't spelle, ok?

NEVER mind then. My apologies to @Herrick

 

[dabis]

I think it depends on what is added. Since it’s right there in my avatar I’ll use Grace Jones’ “Slave To The Rhythm” as an example. The original version (written by Bruce Woolley and Simon Darlow) sounds completely different from the single version (for which the producers received writing credit, along with Woolley and Darlow). In this case I don’t see a problem with the credits being expanded.

Original:

Single version:

To me this it what is called a version or a cover. But I see the point on depending of what you add to the original idea, you are a writer or not.

 

[dabis]

Indeed; there are a lot of session players who would be demanding a lot of writing credits were it otherwise. The lines can get a little blurry in those other roles because producers often arrange, as do the writers themselves, and writers often produce, or co-produce, and so on.

Much of what gets credited as what when it comes to these other roles probably depends on who was hired to do what, by whom. If I hire session musicians to play basic rhythmic tracks and solos and I use those tracks, they get instrumental credits. I've never hired a producer to do anything, so the closest I've come to that is the track I posted above, where I gave my collaborator credit for arranging and co-producing, given that he added his tracks and then mixed down that version of the song and delivered it fully mixed.

The version I'm reworking, which will mostly have his lines played by a different instrumentalist, will give him an arrangement credit but not a production credit, which seems fair. I also want to point out that I didn't hire him to do anything, this was a friendly, for-fun collaboration and I'm now paying him as an arranger because I want to use his work on that arrangement in a more serious way.

I suppose people who don't have the skills to produce music themselves would view a good producer as a one-stop shop for all of that skill. I don't work for a label, and it's my stuff, and it's really just an expensive hobby, so I end up doing most of the production, by default.

To me, the concept of "production" casts a pretty large net, in terms of what a producer might do. There are songs I've produced that I didn't play any instrument on (other than voice) but which stayed pretty true to the demo version as written that I did play on, like the one in my current signature. Production decisions involve things like deciding which players to hire and which tracks to use; in that case I ended up hiring another bass player because the song needed a bit more funky stuff that I am capable of doing myself, splicing together two of three bass tracks that I'd been sent, and requesting another brief organ pad to go in below the chorus section between the two solos. But the form of the song didn't change much from what I had already laid onto the bones and sent to the session guys. They added their skill and polish to bring existing ideas to life.

I'm sure I'm not the only person on here producing their own music; it'd be interesting if anyone else would like to post some examples of pre- and post-production work and describe what the process was like, as we all work differently.

I almost produced everything I recorded so far, in a primitive way, along with my band mates, always. Maybe we are on an underground or amateur scene, but it is what it is. The engineers obviously added things (some more than others). Once we paid for a producer and for an engineer separate, It was an almost succesful experience, the best record I did so far. Them both used to work on a more professional level and they added a lot of production, but not a single note or word, just a keyboard arrangement (in fact was the keyboardist who brought us the final idea). I say almost because we lost a member a month after the recording sessions, because of the stress and misunderstood on some of him sessions. We were paying the bill and he didn't get the point after all of a person outside the band taking decissions on his tracks. We're still friends. Doesn't need to say wich instrument he was playing, we all know