How did Madonna and Michael Jackson write their songs?

[bass12]

OK, tell that to Al Green and David Byrne. I never heard them complaining. It's literally done all the time. We have a whole thread about covers and originals here and none of those covers ever changed someone's songwriting credit, but a lot of them made some good money for the songwriter.

Another good example is remixes. Even when everything but the vocal has changed it’s pretty rare that the writing credits will be altered.

 

[bcbassman]

Elvis got 100% of the publishing of anything he recorded not 50%. That's why Dolly Parton turned him down when he wanted to record one of her songs with that deal. It came for Col. Tom Parker..
Steve Lukather helped Michal Jackson's arrangements and even changed some chords in "Billie Jean" but he did not get a writer's credit.
Lots of these artists get credit for songs that they didn't completely write. Many also get ripped off by giving away their publishing when getting signed to record deals.

 

[devnulljp]

I remember reading about Boy George of Culture Club humming the hook from Karma Chameleon into a Fairlite and then the producer built the song around it using samples.
I feel very de-skilled as a musician around this kind of rubbish.

 

[MNAirHead]

you guys ever looked at a CCLI copyright list?

 

[NOVAX]

Yes. That's it! I'm glad you're finally seeing it my way. Do you notice a pattern? Billie Jean is actually Caribbean Queen. Or vice versa. I like Patrick Leonard. I like Reggie Lucas.
I like Nile Rogers. I like Quincy Jones- what's your point?
You think Madge is a musical person and I think she's a business person.
It's all good.

 

[Polkatronixx]

Elvis got 100% of the publishing of anything he recorded not 50%. That's why Dolly Parton turned him down when he wanted to record one of her songs with that deal. It came for Col. Tom Parker..
Steve Lukather helped Michal Jackson's arrangements and even changed some chords in "Billie Jean" but he did not get a writer's credit.
Lots of these artists get credit for songs that they didn't completely write. Many also get ripped off by giving away their publishing when getting signed to record deals.

The inverse is when producers take a cut of record sales. Some big name producers get a hefty chunk, even though they are basically recording engineers (I remember reading that Peter Hook was essentially forced into accepting royalties for his work with the Stone Roses and ended up making more than the band off the single - but that may not be true).

 

[Polkatronixx]

Yes. That's it! I'm glad you're finally seeing it my way. Do you notice a pattern? Billie Jean is actually Caribbean Queen. Or vice versa. I like Patrick Leonard. I like Reggie Lucas.
I like Nile Rogers I like Quincy Jones- what's your point?

I think the guitar riff in "Beat It" is inspired by "Whip It" but what do I know?

In any event, MJ can write songs and your collection of fancy musicians isn't why he was able to write singles and albums that sold by the millions.

If you're making an argument about the anxiety of influence, then yeah - but I'd say Leonard, Lucas, Rogers, Jones are just as guilty.

 

[Son of Wobble]

If you're making an argument about the anxiety of influence, then yeah - but I'd say Leonard, Lucas, Rogers, Jones are just as guilty.

Thanks for tossing that term in the pot, I was not familiar with it. Very interesting topic! You have redeemed this thread

The Anxiety of Influence - Wikipedia

 

[NOVAX]

 

[Polkatronixx]

Thanks for tossing that term in the pot, I was not familiar with it. Very interesting topic! You have redeemed this thread

The Anxiety of Influence - Wikipedia

My old flatmate used to argue that nothing was original. I kind of agree. But that's not to say that nothing has worth or can be novel or interesting.

 

[NOVAX]

It's a debate or discussion but hardly an argument. Louie Louie, more than a feeling, and smells like teen spirit are all basically the same song.

 

[buldog5151bass]

It's business - same reason the Stones only have 4 members, although Darryl Jones hass been with them, both on stage and in the studio, since 1993.

 

[Polkatronixx]

It's a debate or discussion but hardly an argument.

You've not had the pleasure of spending the evening with David Purvis and a lot of whisky or malt liquor or what have you.

 

[NOVAX]

20 years sober.

 

[Polkatronixx]

20 years sober.

This was in the late 90s/early 2000s, so you might've got in with a shout.

 

[Polkatronixx]

20 years sober.

Congrats on the sobriety, btw.

I quit drinking probably 10 years ago. Not completely - I might have a small glass of wine every few months.

 

[NOVAX]

I worked at Sound City. That's my name drop. Thanks Polka. I'm better without it. I agree Madge and MJ are real genius. As far as knicking? I really can only reference my own personal ability to lift and for lack of a better term -rip off -because I can- not because I want to. Does that make any sense?

 

[Son of Wobble]

I worked at Sound City. That's my name drop.

How could I have imagined, mid-seventies, that the Fleetwood Mac record on the car radio was recorded kitty-corner from the Tommy Burger in my hand?
How many Tommy Burgers did Nirvana eat while cutting Nevermind there?

 

[Son of Wobble]

I worked at Sound City. That's my name drop.

Did Kurt ever say, "Bring me back a tamale?"

 

[LBS-bass]

ETA: by your logic, instrumental bands are mere "arrangers". Let alone drummers. Total B-musicians, they can't do any melody.

That's not what I said at all, please don't put words in my mouth. I personally don't care for the idea that melody is the end all and be all of songwriting. I think chord structure and what is laid over that in terms of primary melodic content are equally important. The rest of the stuff is arrangement.

If you think that I'm sitting at home writing melodies and handing that over to someone to write chords under, then you're wrong. That's not songwriting, that's collaborating in songwriting.

Instrumental bands develop chordal and melodic structures and then overlay arrangements on them, just like vocal bands do. Where you got the idea I thought otherwise is not clear.