Double Bass How I get a bigger sound?

[Jason Sypher]

Amen to this. We tend to have some kind of martyrdom playing this ungainly instrument.
Growing musically up in the 1990'ies I certainly heard my share of opinions on string height (HIGH!) and sitting vs standing ("Bass is a stand-up instrument"!). This came from a needed disassociation from the bass sounds of the 70'ies and 80'ies, but went too far in the other direction.
I always fret about not having enough volume and punch acoustically, leading me to overplay and thereby actually ending up with a thinner, more pointy tone.
This is especially true with my new, or rather very old, small bass. When I just caress it more, it sounds beautiful,
but in the heat of interplay it's hard not to dig in, choking the tone in the process.

Get a room!
There is a “free-Jazz” player in Holland. I forget his name. Oh, Wilburt deJoode I think. Plays a 5/8th Cole with guts. I could hardly get anything out of it but he made it sound huge. Set ups and size correlate to playing styles. I studied a bit with William Parker. I though his set up was hard to play but he had no problems with it. Then again I’ve played buttery set ups that I also couldn’t get a sound out of. So it’s the combination of many factors. I’m sure my lower height solos have made me change the way I draw sound. But I figured it out.

 

[BobDeRosa]

Cole Davis is a very solid young player. I wouldn't put him forward as anywhere to start with a huge sound, especially since he seems far more into clarity, fluidity and precision. Those things are not always at odds, but I don't see his style getting past many drummers without an amp.
Dennis Irwin would be a place to start, as would William Parker.

Agreed. I think I used "big sound" when I really meant "beautiful sound," which I think Cole's is. I sometimes conflate the two.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Agreed. I think I used "big sound" when I really meant "beautiful sound," which I think Cole's is. I sometimes conflate the two.

I used to joke with Sam at David Gage that I was trying to develop a small sound. Everyone was trying to get a big sound. There must be a more original approach? This always lead to Sam recalling how Charlie Haden would come into the shop and admonish Sam for hitting the bass so hard. “You’re playing too hard man. Play gently to get a better sound” he would say.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

On a more personal note, one thing I’ve been working on for a long time is something I think of as the “dancing line”. I could write a thesis on it, but in short it’s about dynamic peaks and valleys and accents both in walking and soloistic lines. As relates to this thread, the connection is that the peak accents of a line can be big while the dynamically subordinate parts of the line can be more relaxed and flowing, sort of like a bas-relief concept in sound.

In this way of playing, the physicality of getting a big sound is more intermittent, while the overall perception is of a big sound because of the high points. It’s also a great comping technique for bringing the line out between the cracks of a melody or solo.

 

[Tom Lane]

On a more personal note, one thing I’ve been working on for a long time is something I think of as the “dancing line”. I could write a thesis on it, but in short it’s about dynamic peaks and valleys and accents both in walking and soloistic lines. As relates to this thread, the connection is that the peak accents of a line can be big while the dynamically subordinate parts of the line can be more relaxed and flowing, sort of like a bas-relief concept in sound.

In this way of playing, the physicality of getting a big sound is more intermittent, while the overall perception is of a big sound because of the high points. It’s also a great comping technique for bringing the line out between the cracks of a melody or solo.

I think that's an excellent point and I like and try to copy your use of dynamics within a line. I think it's one more dimension to use to make the music more interesting and the interplay of the instruments less predictable. Certainly, there are different perspectives on the idea but I'm in your camp. In your case, it also helps that you've got a killer-loud right hand so your medium-loud is many lesser folks "fitful-jumpin'-up-and-down".

 

[BobDeRosa]

I used to joke with Sam at David Gage that I was trying to develop a small sound. Everyone was trying to get a big sound. There must be a more original approach? This always lead to Sam recalling how Charlie Haden would come into the shop and admonish Sam for hitting the bass so hard. “You’re playing too hard man. Play gently to get a better sound” he would say.

That's exactly my point but you and Charlie and Sam expressed it a whole lot better.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

That's exactly my point but you and Charlie and Sam expressed it a whole lot better.

I tried this tonight, both as an experiment, but also because I was tired and didn’t have the energy to “pull a big sound”. My bass may not need it. I trusted that I was projecting a good sound in the practice room and I made a conscious effort not to choke the bass. It’s not going to be the kind of bass where you pluck the D string and your whole body vibrates, compared to some other basses I have played recently. Maybe it will be that way in a few decades. But it’s a quality instrument that maybe just needs to be approached differently. And perhaps a change of strings is in order.

 

[garrett2]

Esperanza Spaulding’s right hand is an ideal for me of getting maximum tone with no choking. She floats.

 

[notabene]

Probably repeating myself, but being in tune with others makes the bass sound "bigger". On a related point, being in tune with a tempered instrument e.g. piano is different than being in tune with other untempered instruments. Playing in tune with a static drone is good practice, but being in tune with untempered instruments requires lots of listening and adjusting on the fly. For me, it is a constant "struggle" but while practicing to drones is time well spent, practising playing diatonic scales in tune is (for me) necessary for both ears and hands. Everything (as Einstein might have said) is relative.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Probably repeating myself, but being in tune with others makes the bass sound "bigger". On a related point, being in tune with a tempered instrument e.g. piano is different than being in tune with other untempered instruments. Playing in tune with a static drone is good practice, but being in tune with untempered instruments requires lots of listening and adjusting on the fly. For me, it is a constant "struggle" but while practicing to drones is time well spent, practising playing diatonic scales in tune is (for me) necessary for both ears and hands. Everything (as Einstein might have said) is relative.

Another reason why dots or markers are not a great idea.JMO

 

[garrett2]

Another reason why dots or markers are not a great idea.JMO

disagree above the octave. It’s good to have a target for leaps for us mortals.

 

[Bruce Calin]

disagree above the octave. It’s good to have a target for leaps for us mortals.

This has been discussed at length on this site. There is an argument for this because some of the great soloists find it useful for very high pitches but others don't. In the lower parts of the neck it's like training wheels. Like I said: JMO.

 

[Michael Glynn]

One thing that I noticed while watching your video is how much the bass itself is often moving as you play. This isn't necessarily a problem, but it can affect sound production and feel in several ways, so it might be worth thinking about.

For example there are a couple of ways that the right hand can make the bass move in ways that are counter-productive for sound.

First, it is easy to make the bass rotate in towards our body as we pluck the string. This is bad because the energy which should go into the string is instead going into moving the entire bass. In addition, because the string is "running away" from your plucking finger your attack is slowed down and the angle at which you are plucking is changing, possibly for the worse. The best way to avoid this, in my experience, is to attack the string quickly. I sometimes think of hitting the string rather than pulling it. This is tied into the velocity stuff that Chris F is talking about.

Second, sometimes our thumb pushes against the fingerboard, rotating the bass away from the body. This can happen in the lead up as we position our hand and fingers to pluck the next note. This is usually more pronounced on the upper strings, as we need to reach further to pluck them. Again, the string seems to be running away from our plucking finger, but this time before we even play the note. This can again negatively affect our timing and also forces us to stretch even further to reach the string, likely putting us in a less favorable ergonomic position for plucking. The thumb can also push the fingerboard and rotate the bass as we are plucking a note if we use too much of a pinching motion between thumb and plucking finger to play the note. I try to avoid these issues by keeping my thumb relaxed and resting it against the board rather than pressing. I aim for the minimum pressure necessary with the thumb.

 

[crd]

This Mingus video is great for a lot of reasons but it gives a lot of clear shots of his right hand technique. If I was looking for a big sound, I'd start here:

 

[turf3]

I'm sure people with far more experience than I have alrady chimed in but last night at rehearsal I had again an experience I've had so many times.

I was playing along, and at first I was pulling pretty hard, and my level (totally unamplified, and two acoustic guitarists one of whom plays pretty hard and the other one doesn't play real hard but was strumming full chords) was about right.

Then after an hour or so of playing, there was a passage where I moved from a target dynamic of mf to say mp or p: and it actually seemed LOUDER. My point here is that at least on my bass for me, there's a level of "pulling hard" that yields max. sound; and if I pull softer OR harder, it gets quieter. In long playing sessions, I often end up finding that "sweet spot". So I'd suggest anyone who wants "louder" and isn't an experienced bassist who's already got all that nailed, to spend time trying to find it and then internalize the so-called muscle memory of how to find it.

Of course if you're an experienced bassist and you got past this point of learning long ago, disregard what I just wrote. I have no advice for those kinds of folks; I need to be getting advice from them.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Then after an hour or so of playing, there was a passage where I moved from a target dynamic of mf to say mp or p: and it actually seemed LOUDER. My point here is that at least on my bass for me, there's a level of "pulling hard" that yields max. sound; and if I pull softer OR harder, it gets quieter. In long playing sessions, I often end up finding that "sweet spot". So I'd suggest anyone who wants "louder" and isn't an experienced bassist who's already got all that nailed, to spend time trying to find it and then internalize the so-called muscle memory of how to find it.

I often think of the top of the bass as analogous to a drum head. Not sure how accurate that is scientifically, but it seems to add up to me. Hit the drum too softly, and it won't engage much. Hit it too hard and it chokes/flubs. Hit is just right and it resonates perfectly and smoothly.

 

[crd]

I often think of the top of the bass as analogous to a drum head. Not sure how accurate that is scientifically, but it seems to add up to me. Hit the drum too softly, and it won't engage much. Hit it too hard and it chokes/flubs. Hit is just right and it resonates perfectly and smoothly.

That makes sense to me. I think the left hand is the forgotten part of this equation.

The left hand determines how much energy you can put into the string and a big pizz sound is a lot more demanding than the loudest fff arco.

There is a lot of truth to being in tune helping one project. Some piano's make me feel like I project much easier.

However all this zen talk of playing softer to sound louder doesn't seem to transfer to my experience gigging acoustically for many years. I mean, yes playing with a soft touch is great. If I had my way, I too would gig in a plastic bubble like Charlie Haden on big stages with baffles for the drums but when I show up to play without an amp with drums, I am not softly caressing my strings.

 

[ctrlzjones]

I guess the magic word here is choking. If you use the force wisely it’ll help you projecting the sound; if not it’ll dampen the sound.

For me, when done right, the sound travels back through the arm into to body and back again to the stop and so creates a circular vibration; when I’m stiff or stopping wrong that does not happen so much.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Choking is a complicated term, because it involves so many factors. One that took me forever to figure out is the “choke ceiling” on various strings. There is a point with most strings where digging deeper yields no more benefit. EP strings often left me with aching hands for this reason. For me, Spiro Mitts and Dominants have the highest ceiling of any strings I’ve tried.

 

[Ketbass]

Timely, Chris. I was just thinking yesterday, what is the optimal point to start switching to a different string because of the lost resonance (choked sound) as I climb the fingerboard. I use D’Addario orchestral mediums. They bow well and have that mellow “European sound” I here on a lot of albums, but the A and E choke out around the D and A respectively.