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How many song to learn is reasonable for an initial try-out?

#101
I'll give you an example of where I'm coming from.

I have a rehearsal with my blues band tomorrow (Sunday)...we had 20 songs to learn by tomorrow morning (songs we agreed to work on last Sunday).

I had a busy week with my business and family so my time was severely compromised. I didn't even start working on these songs until Tuesday morning before everyone got up. I went through every song and got the chord progressions down. That took a half hour.

I listened to them pretty much through the day (not playing along). Then that same night, I went through them all again, this time figuring out the bass lines a little more, whether or not they were mainly following the guitar or vocals, or along with, or counterpoint to the drum parts. That took another half hour.

So, in one day (one full hour total) I had 20 songs down well enough that I could have loosely (very loosely, but passable) gigged them and gotten by. Not perfect and certainly not to my standards, but I could have faked my way through a gig. I wouldn't have...but they could be roughly jammed through.

Day two, I went through the 20 songs again, this time paying more attention to subtle parts of the bass lines. This was only a half hour in the morning. Again at night for a half hour I went through them, this time skipping past the songs I already knew pretty good and only focusing on those that really needed more work.

Over the course of four days of listening to them over and over (without playing along) and then just two half hour sessions each day (with my bass) I have these songs nailed down...tight. I know them backwards and forwards, inside and out and I will nail them at band rehearsal. A grand total of 4 hours to learn 20 songs...or 5 songs per hour. And honestly, most of my time was spent keying in on the more complex stuff and throughout my day listening to them and drilling them into my brain.

Granted, some of them weren't terribly complex, nor are they Dream Theater, but of the 20, six were tunes by Joe Bonamassa, and four were John Mayer Trio tunes (Think Pino's bass lines are a breeze to learn?). Ten were a bitch to get down solid. So ten were basically a breeze and ten required most of my attention.

It's really nothing more than deconstructing a song, breaking it down into manageable sections and refining as you go along. So long as you know your instrument, the key is "listening". Hell, I often learn songs without even picking up my bass. I do most of my learning just by paying attention as I listen to them. I can hear what notes go where and I'm playing my bass along with it..in my head. By the time I pick up my bass it's just a matter of playing what I know in my head already.

Another key is to not waste time playing parts you already know and put all your efforts into the parts you don't know. If you know how the verse or chorus goes, why waste time playing along to every verse or chorus (unless of course it's significantly different)? Get down to the parts that require attention and you can save boatloads of time learning them.

I also use a Tascam Bass Trainer and which allows me to quickly loop complex parts, slow them down without altering pitch and just helps me move on through the songs rather quickly. Over the course of four days, 20 songs were learned mostly in my head while listening and the 4 hours of bass time was spent only on those parts that required the physical work. The rest was a piece of cake and required literally no time at all. It has more to do with how wisely you use your time when practicing than anything else.
 
#102
Sundogue said:
Ha...I use cheat sheets for every gig I've ever played...most of the time they are left ignored and are always out of sight. No one in the audience would ever know I had them, including you.

Here's my definition of "knowing" songs after spending a week learning 60 tunes. 60 tunes from Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, Ozzy, AC/DC, Sammy Hagar, Night Ranger, and any other number of classic rock tunes from the 70's, 80's, 90's along with some current stuff (at the time). Not exactly difficult, but not three chord jams all night either.

I show up for the gig, put my cheat sheet on a monitor (out of view) and rip through the entire gig without screwing up (or staring at my notes). The audience is entertained, the band is thrilled the gig went off without so much as a single glitch in the performance.

Did I play perfect? I don't ever play perfect. No one does. But I pulled the gig off after one week of learning 60 songs. And at the time it was one week of a full time job, four kids, a part time job on the side AND learning all 60 tunes. Not much sleep to be had but I did what was required. It's called professionalism. Try it sometime.

I had on-call gigs when I lived in St. Louis where I'd show up, be on stage and the only rehearsal I had was the guitar player giving me a quick shout-out of the chord progression before starting the tune. Learn on the go and thrown right into the fire. Now that was a challenge and it wasn't always pretty.
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Sundogue said:
I'll give you an example of where I'm coming from.

I have a rehearsal with my blues band tomorrow (Sunday)...we had 20 songs to learn by tomorrow morning (songs we agreed to work on last Sunday).

I had a busy week with my business and family so my time was severely compromised. I didn't even start working on these songs until Tuesday morning before everyone got up. I went through every song and got the chord progressions down. That took a half hour.

I listened to them pretty much through the day (not playing along). Then that same night, I went through them all again, this time figuring out the bass lines a little more, whether or not they were mainly following the guitar or vocals, or along with, or counterpoint to the drum parts. That took another half hour.

So, in one day (one full hour total) I had 20 songs down well enough that I could have loosely (very loosely, but passable) gigged them and gotten by. Not perfect and certainly not to my standards, but I could have faked my way through a gig. I wouldn't have...but they could be roughly jammed through.

Day two, I went through the 20 songs again, this time paying more attention to subtle parts of the bass lines. This was only a half hour in the morning. Again at night for a half hour I went through them, this time skipping past the songs I already knew pretty good and only focusing on those that really needed more work.

Over the course of four days of listening to them over and over (without playing along) and then just two half hour sessions each day (with my bass) I have these songs nailed down...tight. I know them backwards and forwards, inside and out and I will nail them at band rehearsal. A grand total of 4 hours to learn 20 songs...or 5 songs per hour. And honestly, most of my time was spent keying in on the more complex stuff and throughout my day listening to them and drilling them into my brain.

Granted, some of them weren't terribly complex, nor are they Dream Theater, but of the 20, six were tunes by Joe Bonamassa, and four were John Mayer Trio tunes (Think Pino's bass lines are a breeze to learn?). Ten were a bitch to get down solid. So ten were basically a breeze and ten required most of my attention.

It's really nothing more than deconstructing a song, breaking it down into manageable sections and refining as you go along. So long as you know your instrument, the key is "listening". Hell, I often learn songs without even picking up my bass. I do most of my learning just by paying attention as I listen to them. I can hear what notes go where and I'm playing my bass along with it..in my head. By the time I pick up my bass it's just a matter of playing what I know in my head already.

Another key is to not waste time playing parts you already know and put all your efforts into the parts you don't know. If you know how the verse or chorus goes, why waste time playing along to every verse or chorus (unless of course it's significantly different)? Get down to the parts that require attention and you can save boatloads of time learning them.

I also use a Tascam Bass Trainer and which allows me to quickly loop complex parts, slow them down without altering pitch and just helps me move on through the songs rather quickly. Over the course of four days, 20 songs were learned mostly in my head while listening and the 4 hours of bass time was spent only on those parts that required the physical work. The rest was a piece of cake and required literally no time at all. It has more to do with how wisely you use your time when practicing than anything else.
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Just wanted to say that you are an awesome example of someone getting things DONE when results are needed. Seriously inspiring!
 
#103
Rudreax said:
Just wanted to say that you are an awesome example of someone getting things DONE when results are needed. Seriously inspiring!
Click to expand...

Thanks. But I'm not doing anything special that others (who are far better than me) aren't doing. I just think a musician needs to take on the responsibility for their part. I'd be pissed to get to a rehearsal or gig and someone else in the band didn't do their part.

And it's not rocket science. It's just learning one part to a bunch of songs. How hard can it be when its the blues or rock'n'roll? It's not like I have to learn some classical music or some wild jazz number note for note. That's not a knock on the genres at all...just the reality.

It was in response to bluewine's assertion that nobody could learn 50 songs in two weeks. Nobody can if they don't get off their lazy ass and get to work, that's for sure. Sometimes you just gotta buckle down and do your job.
 
#104
Interesting thread to say the least. My regimen for learning songs is in line with Sundogue's. I figured out a long, long time ago that if I get a song in my head, putting it to the instrument is the easy part. So learning whatever number of songs in a week is far from impossible though I can understand why some have a problem.

If you get a song imprinted into your brain you'll know what to play and not to play. Once I've done it I typically test the "print" by singing the bass work along with the music. The only reason I can't sing it is because I don't know it. Repetition breeds familiarity. The music that's been discussed in this thread is all based on some pretty standard and IMO obvious intervals, once you've figured out/recognized what a third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, second, whatever sounds like, getting to that interval from the previous note should be pretty easy. I "see" the patterns without picking up the instrument. A bonus is that you're not locked into a key at that point. So the band can play the song wherever they choose, fine with me.

It's really not as hard as some apparently think. Most of the groups I work with don't rehearse. They send out a songlist, explain the arrangement they want to do, pick a key (or not) and expect everyone to show up ready to play. And we do. The one situation where I do have around one rehearsal a week is with the church I play for... 6 to 9 new songs a week, list goes out at the beginning of the week, we get together on Saturday to format everything. Once you get used to learning minus the excuses it's fun. Even learning alone for no job related reason can make you a better musician... or not I guess;)
:cool:
 
#105
bluewine said:
As I said jive, I was giging bands before you were born. I was out there in the 60s gigging in Funk bands when you were in diapers.

But I am a rookie to booking. And in my opinion that's what you are. Your a business Guy.
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Quit the BS. Last time it was a Rock band. In 1960 you were 7 years old. At no-time during the 60s were you old enough to be in a bar, and that's with the drinking age at 18.

Yes, I'm a business guy. Doesn't mean I can't be a good musician too. Personally, I don't know anyone with 20 years of experience (let alone 40) who is completely clueless on the business side and thinks it's impossible to learn 50 songs in 2 weeks. That's why you're easy to spot as BS.

Hint: Experienced musicians are well trained in weeding out BS, because they deal with it alot.
 
#106
Good stuff from Brad and Sun, as usual.

Going off of what they said, actively listening to a song without an instrument will let you hear the intervals. Lots of times, the pop covers will follow "the money chords". Once you can hear those, you will be able to pick out songs quickly, and once you learn one, you can learn dozens more instantly because now you have a structure you can hang onto. Look at these like a shelf. You put things like notes, grooves, feels, variations, and embellishments on these shelves. Without the shelves, you'll have to carry every single item, which is beyond lots of people's ability. It's much easier to remember a few chords, than a few hundred notes.

Here are the money chords:
Roman numerals indicate the chord. Capitals are for major chords, lowercase for minor.

1. 12 bar blues. There are literally 1000s of songs in different genres that follow this progression. Too many to name.

2. I - V - vi - IV. A common pop chord progression. Songs like Don't Stop Believing, With or Without You, Land Down Under, Good, Under the Bridge, When I Come Around, and dozens more follow this one. Lots of Pop-Punk tunes seem to use this to some variation. Check out this link: Axis of Awesome - 4 Chords *LIVE* Great Quality - YouTube

3. I - vi - IV - V. A common one in oldies music, especially 50s . Stand by Me, Earth Angel, Duke of Earl, Dyer Maker, Every Breath You Take are some songs that use this. Some folks call these "Ice Cream Changes"

4. I - IV - V. A common progression in Rock and Pop. You can vary it rhythmically to get lots of songs out of it like La Bamba, Good Lovin, Twist and Shout, Wild Thing, Stir It Up, and hundreds more.

5. I - V - IV. Another common progression used in many different genres. Vary it rhythically, and get lots of songs out of it like Stone In Love, Chicken Fried, Helpless, and countless others. You can also substitute the IV with the relative minor and get songs like Knockin on Heaven's door.

6. V - IV - I. A common Rock Progression. Sweet Home Alabama, I Know You Rider, Can't You See, Werewolves of London, All summer long are some examples.

7. I - IV. Sort of a jam oriented progression, but catchy. ABC, Lovelight, Just My Imagination, Blister In The Sun are some examples. If you use the vi instead of the IV, you get a more fifties feel. Use a V instead of the IV, and you can use it for lots of Country and Gospel Tunes, as well as many New Orleans style grooves like Aiko Aiko. Use a flattened VII instead of the IV, and you can do long funky or groove oriented jams on it.

8. ii - V - I. A common Jazz progression, so it's useful for the Jazz, Swing, Ragtime, and show tunes. There's many variations on this.

Each genre has it's money chords, standard arrangements, and grooves. For example, in Reggae the ii-I is popular while I-bVII can be found in Funk. In Blues, you have the 8 bar, 12 bar, and 16 bar forms as well as a single chord boogie. And in those forms you can have an uptown shuffle, downtown shuffle, swing, or boogaloo with each having a generic pattern that's moveable and interchangeable. Learn the money chords and standard grooves for the stuff you're doing, and you're on your way to learning songs quick. It may even help with writing originals as well.

I usually learn the chord progression for the parts of the songs like the verse, chorus, bridge, interlude, intro, end, etc. I'll learn the basic arrangement, and if there are any signature lines or tight arrangements, I'll learn those. And I'll usually quit from there depending on the band I'm playing with. If they are truly a "play it like the CD" band, I'll learn the song like the recording. But, I find that lots of "play it like the CD" folks will still do something different, intentional or not.

The reasons why I do this is to save time, to be prepared for any curveballs the band might throw, and to put on a good show overall. By not marrying myself to a specific bassline, if the drummer isn't playing what is exactly on the recording, I can still come up with something that will fit. Also, if the singer does the song in a different key that totally screws up those great open note lines, you can still play something that fits as long as you know the chord structure for that section. Sometimes a band will do a song in a different style, tempo, or arrangement. For example, I work with a band that does a swing version of "Stand By Me". Learning the song note for note would not be as useful as knowing the changes so that you can walk over them. So, it's also important to be able to come up with and play something interesting over changes. Regardless of whether you're doing covers or originals, it's what they hired you for. Also, if you use a cheatsheet, by knowing the chords, you can just glance at your notes to get the progression as opposed to being glued to a chart to get the individual notes.

Based on gig experience, I found that it's good to learn the sections of the song. A band might extend a song if the crowd is getting into it. For example, "Twist and Shout" is originally a 2 minute song, and I've never done it for less than 4. So, I learn the sections of the song so that I can extend it at the chorus/verse or bridge. Sometimes a band may omit a section of a song, or repeat it, so it's good to know where and how to make the transitions.

Also, they may require me to sing lead or background on one or more of the songs. Depending on the bassline, I may need to adjust it so that I can sing it and still keep the groove of the song going. I did a gig where the singer's voice wore out towards the end of the night. We were scheduled for a second night, and decided during set break to give her voice a rest in order to get through tomorrow's gig. I had to sing a handful of songs I had never sung before while playing bass. As long as I maintained the chord progression, locked in with the drummer, and sang in tune and in time, I was good.

And sometimes, someone in the band will mess up. The drummer might play the wrong beat, the singer may skip the bridge, the guitarist starts in the wrong key, etc. It's good to know the basics of the song, so you can adjust and avoid a trainwreck. Sometimes, you may also find a diamond in the rough.


IMO, IME, if you learn the chord progressions of the sections of the song you're almost there. If you have a good ear and ability to communicate on stage, you're good to go for most situations. It's more important to fit with your band and how they are doing the song, moreso than to learn a song note for note like the recording. Because if they aren't, you're off, no matter how "right" you are.
 
#115
jive1 said:
Quit the BS. Last time it was a Rock band. In 1960 you were 7 years old. At no-time during the 60s were you old enough to be in a bar, and that's with the drinking age at 18.

Yes, I'm a business guy. Doesn't mean I can't be a good musician too. Personally, I don't know anyone with 20 years of experience (let alone 40) who is completely clueless on the business side and thinks it's impossible to learn 50 songs in 2 weeks. That's why you're easy to spot as BS.

Hint: Experienced musicians are well trained in weeding out BS, because they deal with it alot.
Click to expand...

Jive, you have so much going on in your personal life. I would not trade places with you. You should take a breath and concentrate whats important and less on me. I am a veteran player and understand the history of this culture at a level you could not begin to understand.

All of your facts about my history are wrong.

I started playing in the 6th grade, It was 1965 and we played private parties, school and church sponsored dances.

It's imposible to learn 50 new songs and be gig ready for a flawless performance.

I understand why your jealous of me, but you will get over it.

I am clueless on the business side, I rely on people like you for that. You book it, you manage it and I will deliver the performance.
 
#119
jive1 said:
Good stuff from Brad and Sun, as usual.

Going off of what they said, actively listening to a song without an instrument will let you hear the intervals. Lots of times, the pop covers will follow "the money chords". Once you can hear those, you will be able to pick out songs quickly, and once you learn one, you can learn dozens more instantly because now you have a structure you can hang onto. Look at these like a shelf. You put things like notes, grooves, feels, variations, and embellishments on these shelves. Without the shelves, you'll have to carry every single item, which is beyond lots of people's ability. It's much easier to remember a few chords, than a few hundred notes.

Here are the money chords:
Roman numerals indicate the chord. Capitals are for major chords, lowercase for minor.
Click to expand...

Jive, your also a great teacher as well as band manager, this post proves it.

None of what you wrote impresses me and you really don't have to try to impress me.

We are generations apart. I look at the culture and the business differently than you. To me your an amusing youngster.

Sit back and listen to some Kiss, after all their bigger than The Beatles.:hmm:
 
#120
Sundogue said:
Fixed it for ya.

But I will agree that if you are doing very complex music it might take longer for some.

But you should know that you could practice those songs for 50 years and that would be no guarantee of a flawless performance.
Click to expand...

Again I think your definition of learning a song is different than mine.

Guys, I am not budging on this issue.
 

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