How pathetic is this???

[FromTheBassMent]

I read about that yesterday and in a strange way I am not surprised. I have to listen to a bilingual recorded message when I call my kids school.

It's all part of the United States getting in step with the way things are in the rest of the world. I don't imagine the linguistic diversification of the US will happen as quickly as the ethnic diversification has happened (non-whites now very close to outnumbering whites nationally), simply because English is establishing itself in so many parts of the world as the "global" language. Of course, this could change... remember that the global language was once the lingua Franca. That certainly didn't last... although there are still parts of Africa and the Caribbean where you're in deep merde if you don't speak French.

I remember being in a shop in Switzerland about 25 years ago. I stood there and watched a young woman who was helping customers speak fluent English, French, German, and Italian, all in the span of about four minutes. And I thought about our reluctance as a culture to embrace multi-lingualism. I think there are a lot of things that contribute to this attitude, including xenophobia, arrogance and racism (often thinly disguised as "patriotism"). But I feel that this reluctance limits us. I can speak some Spanish, and at one time I was nearly fluent in Indonesian (very difficult to practice that skill in New England!). I believe these skills brought me closer to understanding things about people who are different from me. In the long run, it made them seem less different.

In an ideal world, every American would spend a year abroad in a country where English is not commonly spoken. It's an enlightening experience... and also, frustratingly challenging and often embarrassing. It teaches humility. It certainly helped me get down off of John Wayne's high horse.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I'm sure you mean moot.
Cinco de Mayo is more of a US holiday than a mexican one; popularized by beer companies.

Yup, fixed.

And you`re right about that.

 

[LarryO]

Tequila or Beer ? I'll have both !!

 

[flipper_gv]

You know, I read this incident yesterday and was absolutely livid. I was going to post the story and add my comments, but couldn't think of how to do so without getting it immediately locked.
There's of course more to this story than meets the eye. The kids weren't sent home specifically for being patriotic, they were sent home voluntarily because it was believed that they were instigating trouble. That's probably the case IMO. There was no racism or favoritism involved, it was an ill-thought out attempt to stave off a bigger problem. My real problem with this is the mindset of the folks- the other kids at the school - who would be offended by this. If you really are offended by a show of patriotism in the nation where you now reside and a nation who is in no way shape or form your enemy, then you have a problem, a big big problem that YOU yourself need to address and get the hell over.
If you think I sound a little perturbed you should hear my wife. Being part Hispanic and coming to this country with her family legally years ago and now being an American citizen, she and her family have only abject disdain for this sort of mentality.

This is win.

 

[jp58]

Eh, yes and no. Freedom of speech would be protected here, as would their right to peaceful protest. Personally I think the school messed up big time. And for the record, not conservative and even I`m livid about this.




Maybe in the 1950s to 1980s. And honestly in this day and age I think most Americans wouldn`t care or even notice. Also, Cinco de Mayo is not their independence day so your point is mute at best.

Free speech does not apply here and neither does peaceful protest. The school officials felt they were starting trouble, and in a high school setting that is far from peaceful protest. And again bandannas aren't appropriate for school in any area.

NO, it's not the same. It would be the same as wearing an American flag tshirt in the Soviet Union on Nov 7th.

No one is complaining about the Mexican pride happening in Morgan Hill, it's the opposition to showing American pride happening in Morgan Hill, a location in America...on ANY day of the year. You want to wear your Irish pride tshirt on July 4th? Go for it, pass me a Guinness and watch your sparkler.

I have no problem with celebrating Cinco de Mayo in America and wearing any t-shirt any day of the week, but calling it insensitive or having an issue with wearing our colors in our country on any day will never be ok.

A holiday is a holiday. What about a John Wilkes Booth or Oswalt shirt on President's day? A Nazi era flag or uniform on Veteran's day? Where is the line crossed?

 

[drteeth]

So ... wearing a flag of your country is offensive these days Well I am confused

 

[mike_v_s]

A holiday is a holiday. What about a John Wilkes Booth or Oswalt shirt on President's day? A Nazi era flag or uniform on Veteran's day? Where is the line crossed?

Good point. I got my ass beat when I wore my Santa suit on Easter.

Mike

 

[Turock]

A holiday is a holiday. What about a John Wilkes Booth or Oswalt shirt on President's day? A Nazi era flag or uniform on Veteran's day? Where is the line crossed?

Right there.

 

[LarryO]

LMAO is this Irony???

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/stupid?src=3GADN

 

[Relic]

It's all part of the United States getting in step with the way things are in the rest of the world. I don't imagine the linguistic diversification of the US will happen as quickly as the ethnic diversification has happened (non-whites now very close to outnumbering whites nationally), simply because English is establishing itself in so many parts of the world as the "global" language. Of course, this could change... remember that the global language was once the lingua Franca. That certainly didn't last... although there are still parts of Africa and the Caribbean where you're in deep merde if you don't speak French.

I remember being in a shop in Switzerland about 25 years ago. I stood there and watched a young woman who was helping customers speak fluent English, French, German, and Italian, all in the span of about four minutes. And I thought about our reluctance as a culture to embrace multi-lingualism. I think there are a lot of things that contribute to this attitude, including xenophobia, arrogance and racism (often thinly disguised as "patriotism"). But I feel that this reluctance limits us. I can speak some Spanish, and at one time I was nearly fluent in Indonesian (very difficult to practice that skill in New England!). I believe these skills brought me closer to understanding things about people who are different from me. In the long run, it made them seem less different.

In an ideal world, every American would spend a year abroad in a country where English is not commonly spoken. It's an enlightening experience... and also, frustratingly challenging and often embarrassing. It teaches humility. It certainly helped me get down off of John Wayne's high horse.

Well, it's an interesting angle because I spent a few years in eastern Europe and if I'm understanding you correctly - I strongly feel completely the exact opposite. One of the first things that I learned is that if you want to appreciate, fully experience and demonstrate your appreciation for a culture and the place you live - you learn their language and their customs. You do this as a sign of respect and appreciation and you find that once you make a sincere attempt to do so, the folks around you not only accept you much better, but will also become very open minded towards your culture. It's a no brainer really.

 

[FromTheBassMent]

NO, it's not the same. It would be the same as wearing an American flag tshirt in the Soviet Union on Nov 7th.

No one is complaining about the Mexican pride happening in Morgan Hill, it's the opposition to showing American pride happening in Morgan Hill, a location in America...on ANY day of the year. You want to wear your Irish pride tshirt on July 4th? Go for it, pass me a Guinness and watch your sparkler.

I have no problem with celebrating Cinco de Mayo in America and wearing any t-shirt any day of the week, but calling it insensitive or having an issue with wearing our colors in our country on any day will never be ok.

While I agree with you philosophically, it's difficult to consider these kinds of situations out of context. The question is not whether the patriotic clothing itself is "appropriate" or "insensitive." It's a question of intent, and I believe that's what the school officials were probably concerned about.

Did these "patriotic" kids wear flag-bedecked clothing on a regular basis? My guess is no. My guess is that things haven't changed much since I grew up in a racially mixed high school, where a significant percentage of the white kids hated the "beaners" and found subtle and not-so-subtle ways of expressing that hate.

I'm surmising that what these kids were doing was not so much expressing their patriotism as it was throwing down with the Mexican kids. They were provoking a confrontation, and school officials always have to be watchful for that kind of behavior. So you read about "insensitivity" and "inappropriateness," and ideologically it seems a perversion of common sense. But if the story had ended with punches thrown and knives pulled, it would have had a very different implication.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

It's all part of the United States getting in step with the way things are in the rest of the world. I don't imagine the linguistic diversification of the US will happen as quickly as the ethnic diversification has happened (non-whites now very close to outnumbering whites nationally), simply because English is establishing itself in so many parts of the world as the "global" language. Of course, this could change... remember that the global language was once the lingua Franca. That certainly didn't last... although there are still parts of Africa and the Caribbean where you're in deep merde if you don't speak French.

I remember being in a shop in Switzerland about 25 years ago. I stood there and watched a young woman who was helping customers speak fluent English, French, German, and Italian, all in the span of about four minutes. And I thought about our reluctance as a culture to embrace multi-lingualism. I think there are a lot of things that contribute to this attitude, including xenophobia, arrogance and racism (often thinly disguised as "patriotism"). But I feel that this reluctance limits us.

I`m actually all for our country and children learning multiple languages. In fact, I think it needs to start at a much younger age than high school and maybe some middle school. That said, however, America isn`t like Europe where you can travel an hour, hear 8 different languages being spoken and then be able to fully emerge yourself within each culture. You might somewhat get an Americanized version of this in major US cities with Little Italys and Chinatowns, but it`s all water-downed.

To me it`s a similar argument when people try to compare our health care, transit systems, school systems, and other things to European nations. What might work for them doesn`t necessarily work for us... That`s culture in and of itself... and the fact we`re much larger and have a poorer infrastructure

 

[MatticusMania]

or the cute, trendy Che Guevara t shirts...

I think Im going to make a Karl Marx shirt to wear on the 4th. Hopefully I have a gig that day.

 

[Relic]

While I agree with you philosophically, it's difficult to consider these kinds of situations out of context. The question is not whether the patriotic clothing itself is "appropriate" or "insensitive." It's a question of intent, and I believe that's what the school officials were probably concerned about.

Did these "patriotic" kids wear flag-bedecked clothing on a regular basis? My guess is no. My guess is that things haven't changed much since I grew up in a racially mixed high school, where a significant percentage of the white kids hated the "beaners" and found subtle and not-so-subtle ways of expressing that hate.

I'm surmising that what these kids were doing was not so much expressing their patriotism as it was throwing down with the Mexican kids. They were provoking a confrontation, and school officials always have to be watchful for that kind of behavior. So you read about "insensitivity" and "inappropriateness," and ideologically it seems a perversion of common sense. But if the story had ended with punches thrown and knives pulled, it would have had a very different implication.

ahh but you're thinking of the "white kids" (two were actually part Hispanic) being the aggressors. You're just guessing and assuming that these kids were NOT being called "gringos" on a daily basis, no? maybe maybe not, all we have are the facts.
I 100% agree that these kids were dangling bait, but the fact that it was readily taken indicates problems on BOTH SIDES of this issue. Nothing will ever get solved or move forward until things are address universally and not just on one side. You dont win or lose in such issues, you evolve on past.

 

[MatticusMania]

Cinco de Mayo is basically just National Corona day here in the States.

Per the Corona thread, my gf and I went with Pacifico.

 

[FromTheBassMent]

Well, it's an interesting angle because I spent a few years in eastern Europe and if I'm understanding you correctly - I strongly feel completely the exact opposite. One of the first things that I learned is that if you want to appreciate, fully experience and demonstrate your appreciation for a culture and the place you live - you learn their language and their customs. You do this as a sign of respect and appreciation and you find that once you make a sincere attempt to do so, the folks around you not only accept you much better, but will also become very open minded towards your culture. It's a no brainer really.

Your point is well taken... and this was certainly my experience when I lived in Indonesia. In tourist-friendly areas I could get by with English, but chose not to out of respect. Of course, in the rain forests of Sumatra I would have been SOL had I not known the language.

I also feel that people in this country who stick to their native language risk isolating themselves in linguistic ghettos. But what seems to be happening more and more is that these ghettos are becoming independent, self-sustaining communities. You can get by very well as a Mandarin or Cantonese speaker who knows little or no English in many American Chinatowns.

But we also need to recognize that people have different opportunities and capacities for learning another language. Which is why I recommend it for people in this country who get all agitated about English being the "official" language. Immersing yourself in a culture where you have to sink or swim based on your language skills is, as I said, an eye-opening experience. It's incredibly hard work.

I think it's appropriate that as a nation that's becoming increasingly diverse linguistically that we make an effort to offer critical communications in multiple languages. It's more important to communicate (in whatever language) than it is to shut off communication simply because of ideology.

 

[Radical Edward]

Growing up in Grand Rapids, Mi I've gone to several schools where a spanish announcement is hear dover the intercom before even english and where you have to wait to hear english or press a button when you call. So, needless to say there's quite the Mexican American population going on here. That said, yes those kids were trying to get a rise out of the other students by doing it, but the appropriate way to handle it would've been to ignore the kids displaying their patriotism so profoundly. They did it to get attention and what did they get? Attention.
On another note, they really didn't disrespect Mexican Americans, or Cinco de Mayo. If anything one could argue that they were just celebrating their independence, as well. I'm fairly sure I've seen Mexican Americans wearing shirts with the Mexican flag, or people having Mexican flags outside their homes, throughout the year.. and even on the 4th of July. No one takes it personally or thinks it's disrespectful or makes a big deal out of it. Not as far as I know, anyway.
I don't see what the big deal is and why they were sent home. Though, at most schools around here you can't wear bandanas, but that's the only thing I think they could've gotten in trouble for.
My opinion.^

 

[FromTheBassMent]

ahh but you're thinking of the "white kids" (two were actually part Hispanic) being the aggressors. You're just guessing and assuming that these kids were NOT being called "gringos" on a daily basis, no? maybe maybe not, all we have are the facts.
I 100% agree that these kids were dangling bait, but the fact that it was readily taken indicates problems on BOTH SIDES of this issue. Nothing will ever get solved or move forward until things are address universally and not just on one side. You dont win or lose in such issues, you evolve on past.

Actually, I wasn't at all interested in assigning blame. I was just making an educated guess about part of the context that may not have been clear in the article. Sometimes what one person sees as "political correctness" (in the worst sense of the term) is actually someone just trying to avoid a brawl.

And I agree with your statement... we live in an incredibly diverse culture, and you would think that diversity would drive evolution. But sometimes you gotta decide to evolve, ya know?

 

[Lurker79]

or the cute, trendy Che Guevara t shirts...

Most of the kiddos don't know El Che was a murderous madman, they see he was a doctor, and tried to help people. He'd kill a father before a son's eyes just to see the emotion. The thing that tells me he was really bad was his execution. No one hit a vital, shot him in the legs, in his arms, no head, no heart. Bleed out. Eyes open. This story is a joke. Morgan Hill is joke.

 

[Relic]

Growing up in Grand Rapids, Mi I've gone to several schools where a spanish announcement is hear dover the intercom before even english and where you have to wait to hear english or press a button when you call. So, needless to say there's quite the Mexican American population going on here. That said, yes those kids were trying to get a rise out of the other students by doing it, but the appropriate way to handle it would've been to ignore the kids displaying their patriotism so profoundly. They did it to get attention and what did they get? Attention.
On another note, they really didn't disrespect Mexican Americans, or Cinco de Mayo. If anything one could argue that they were just celebrating their independence, as well. I'm fairly sure I've seen Mexican Americans wearing shirts with the Mexican flag, or people having Mexican flags outside their homes, throughout the year.. and even on the 4th of July. No one takes it personally or thinks it's disrespectful or makes a big deal out of it. Not as far as I know, anyway.
I don't see what the big deal is and why they were sent home. Though, at most schools around here you can't wear bandanas, but that's the only thing I think they could've gotten in trouble for.
My opinion.^

Wasn't there an incident a couple of years ago where some Mex-American students took down an American flag and replaced it with a Mexican flag at their school then wouldn't let anyone take it down for a while? Forgot where this was..