How to fire a guy who, without a doubt, will not take it well?

[bassbully]

This from a guy with that Jaco quote in his sig.



Nowhere on this thread have I used the word "gun."

No you did not but when you told the OP to "show a weapon" in this country the good old US of A that is usually taken by most as a gun the weapon of choice here.
I know that was my thought and I'm sure most TBer's here. I know you tried to cover it up saying a fist is a weapon yadda, yadda but when you say Weapon, that is normally thought of as a gun first ,knife second,bat third in my book.

Bottom line is don't handle things like this with a weapon since you never know which way it could go and someone including you or another innocent person could wind up dead ,injured or in prison...use your head.

Edit: Fist is not a weapon per say. You often hear a hear a law officer ask if a person has a weapon, you hear people charged with carrying a weapon.. concealing a weapon. A person without a weapon is considered unarmed. Police frisk for weapons not fists. A fist is not considered a weapon. My examples above are weapons and what you implied was the use of a weapon of some kind.

 

[Stumbo]

I'm just talking about EXPERIENCE. That is how I HAVE handled these types of things, and it has always worked out, because cowards who hit women tend to hit the road right quick when you confront them.

And there is NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE who hits a woman who is NOT a coward.

One more time: NO ONE!

In your small sample of experiences, sure they've worked out but advising someone to display a weapon as a method of solving a problem is not a smart thing to do.

IME, I know plenty of people who have the knowledge to take you out without weapons. I also know other people who have no problem taking you out with a weapon.

You just haven't run into them yet. RIP when you do.

 

[JoeVictim]

Nothing to update yet. We carefully weighed all of the input in this thread and have crafted a strategy specific to our situation. There's no chance of violence- I know him well enough that he will react emotionally but passively to the news ("I'm just really hurt that..." etc), but we will part ways on seemingly good terms after which there is a 50/50 chance of him going crazy about the situation. In the end, his response to the split will determine the direction of the project (2 potential outcomes), but he will be the only one with anything to lose. Thanks for all the input!

That's cool. I know some of us are hanging on a thread to read what is going to happen next.

I really do feel that changing names, etc would be best since this guy feels like he is a part of "insert cool band name here". The quicker the band is done, the sooner you guys can move on to bigger and better.

 

[zaubertuba]

Bump for update. Interested in knowing how this worked out (or didn't)?

 

[Waffles and Scotch]

Bump for update. Interested in knowing how this worked out (or didn't)?

I've seen him posting here lately, so my guess is he hasn't threatened anyone else with a weapon...

Oh, wait...you meant the OP. Sorry about that.

 

[funkcicle]

Well... I happy to report that he took it a lot better than we had anticipated, though it was not at all 'welcome news' for him and it did seem to take him completely by surprise. We had actually intended to deliver the news along with his severance package (which will be ready in a couple of weeks), but he started publicly bemoaning the fact that we're not willing to book any gigs at the moment so we got on the horn with each other and decided to move the termination up to "immediately" (we joked that his new band can be called "[His Name] and the Last Straws" ).

So he was in town couch-surfing while looking for work and a place to live, we arranged for a band meeting at a neutral location and arranged for the three of us to be there ~45 minutes before him as was suggested in this thread. We talked everything over with each other to make sure we were all on the same page and had each others' backs, though we did draw straws and fortunately mine wasn't the short one. Once our subject arrived we had a round of drinks over which we brought him somewhat up to speed on where we were with the things that still concern him (he'd been essentially 100% out of the loop for the last 9 months or so), while also firmly establishing what he wants to do (ie, play dive bars for free PBR) and what we want to do (continue to record and collaborate with filmmakers, and NOT play live at all except for when we can afford to put on $xx,xxx productions) are not at all compatible.

We took a brief bathroom break and ordered another round of drinks, when he came back it was time to get down to business. We had agreed in advance to avoid making his termination adversarial, if possible, and give him the opportunity to bow out gracefully. It was basically along the lines of "You left [the band] 9 months ago, and in realizing our potential as a 3-piece we don't feel there is any way to fit you back into [the band]." "We're not looking to tell anybody that you got fired, nobody needs to know why you left the band." etc With a lot of emphasis and reiteration of the fact that this is a decision that has been made, and was not up for debate.

He cycled rather quickly through the first 4 stages of grief... he expressed dismay at how we could go on with "his baby", which was quickly countered with the fact that we've put in thousands of dollars and hours of work over the last 9 months into projects to which he contributed <10 hours of playing- investments that would not have been made if he had not left the band. He made a few pleas that were all met with a unified front, and upon realizing the reality of the situation, very calmly and maturely asked "Alright guys, what is my severance package? What do I get to walk away from this with?"

We had a very civil conversation about what would be fair and he verbally agreed to our terms (which I'm not comfortable divulging here, except to say that the input from this thread was very influential). We have an attorney on retainer who will draw up the paperwork this week, and barring any unforeseen meltdown (not impossible, but *hopefully* unlikely) we will be free of this toxicity soon.

He expressed his sincere sadness one last time before leaving the restaurant completely deflated, and then my phone rang... it was him. He had left his fog lights on during our meeting and needed a jump

 

[Curmei]

Nice to hear. Hope you can finalize things without any drama. Good luck.

 

[JohnMCA72]

Good job, & good luck with your project moving forward!

 

[funkcicle]

just a quick update for those who were interested in this ordeal. As I mentioned above we had verbally agreed to a severance package while avoiding having to make it personal. Well, when it came time to sign the papers D-Bag decided he wanted to renegotiate based on the fact that he didn't understand the worth of the band at the time. The three of us got together and combed our recent email correspondences and very quickly determined that there was absolutely no ambiguity for him to stand behind and he was just being greedy, so we drafted up a new severance package for him.

1) Previous offer that was verbally agreed to is no longer on the table. (This would have entitled him to a 15% revenue share on any past works that included him, payable annually).

2) We agree to his "renegotiation" (which was a change in the terms of what he would receive "up front") as a lump sum, in exchange for him completely signing away any rights or claims to the band, including royalties, songs, imagery, etc. We used a slightly modified version of the form written up by "ChrisB2" in this thread and had it proofed by our attorney.

3) We presented it along with a list of his "unethical behaviors" that led to his termination (very similar to the points I addressed in this thread ) so that there would be absolutely no question as to why we were no longer willing to work with him. While we were initially content to 'pretend' that he had left the band when he moved away, we made it clear that- because of his own behavior- he was no longer welcome in it.

We didn't hear from him for 3 days after after presenting him with the new agreement, at which point he contacted me for clarification... the only further request he made is that we send him a courtesy copy of anything we release that includes him. I received the contract back today and we're finally free of the toxicity that has been holding us back. I would buy you all a drink if I could

 

[Stumbo]

 

[ChrisB2]

We used a slightly modified version of the form written up by "ChrisB2" in this thread and had it proofed by our attorney.

Wow, I'm flattered, and happy to be of help.

I would buy you all a drink if I could

I did enjoy an adult beverage of my choice after reading this. You can send me 58¢ if you want...

Congratulations, and good luck!

 

[TNCreature]

just a quick update for those who were interested in this ordeal. As I mentioned above we had verbally agreed to a severance package while avoiding having to make it personal. Well, when it came time to sign the papers D-Bag decided he wanted to renegotiate based on the fact that he didn't understand the worth of the band at the time. The three of us got together and combed our recent email correspondences and very quickly determined that there was absolutely no ambiguity for him to stand behind and he was just being greedy, so we drafted up a new severance package for him.

1) Previous offer that was verbally agreed to is no longer on the table. (This would have entitled him to a 15% revenue share on any past works that included him, payable annually).

2) We agree to his "renegotiation" (which was a change in the terms of what he would receive "up front") as a lump sum, in exchange for him completely signing away any rights or claims to the band, including royalties, songs, imagery, etc. We used a slightly modified version of the form written up by "ChrisB2" in this thread and had it proofed by our attorney.

3) We presented it along with a list of his "unethical behaviors" that led to his termination (very similar to the points I addressed in this thread ) so that there would be absolutely no question as to why we were no longer willing to work with him. While we were initially content to 'pretend' that he had left the band when he moved away, we made it clear that- because of his own behavior- he was no longer welcome in it.

We didn't hear from him for 3 days after after presenting him with the new agreement, at which point he contacted me for clarification... the only further request he made is that we send him a courtesy copy of anything we release that includes him. I received the contract back today and we're finally free of the toxicity that has been holding us back. I would buy you all a drink if I could

Wow, this sounds too much like my 9-5 job... hope I never find myself there with music.

 

[funkcicle]

Did I say we were free and clear of his toxicity? *sigh*

He has now launched an all-out Facebook assault claiming he was "tricked" into signing away his rights to the band, and that the rest of us are driven by greed and ego (quick refresher- the rest of the band has poured hundred$/thousand$ into the project, he used one of our fundraisers to scam $200 from his mom lol). Fortunately, the only people paying him any attention are people who wouldn't have been paying *us* any attention in the first place, and his spectacle has actually prompted a couple of his friends to buy digital downloads from our website. So he's more or less our unofficial street-team at this point

 

[pmchenry]

Did I say we were free and clear of his toxicity? *sigh*

He has now launched an all-out Facebook assault claiming he was "tricked" into signing away his rights to the band, and that the rest of us are driven by greed and ego (quick refresher- the rest of the band has poured hundred$/thousand$ into the project, he used one of our fundraisers to scam $200 from his mom lol). Fortunately, the only people paying him any attention are people who wouldn't have been paying *us* any attention in the first place, and his spectacle has actually prompted a couple of his friends to buy digital downloads from our website. So he's more or less our unofficial street-team at this point

It's been my experience that most people see right through the vindictive internet campaigns, especially if only one side is seen as antagonizing it. Ignoring him will make you look like the professionals and he'll come across looking like a junior high brat who's throwing a fit for not getting his way.

PS. You handled this far better than I would have, especially since he sounds like the kind of guy who would press assault charges... Great job and good luck!

 

[Mystic Michael]

1) Previous offer that was verbally agreed to is no longer on the table. (This would have entitled him to a 15% revenue share on any past works that included him, payable annually).

2) We agree to his "renegotiation" (which was a change in the terms of what he would receive "up front") as a lump sum, in exchange for him completely signing away any rights or claims to the band, including royalties, songs, imagery, etc. We used a slightly modified version of the form written up by "ChrisB2" in this thread and had it proofed by our attorney.

3) We presented it along with a list of his "unethical behaviors" that led to his termination (very similar to the points I addressed in this thread ) so that there would be absolutely no question as to why we were no longer willing to work with him. While we were initially content to 'pretend' that he had left the band when he moved away, we made it clear that- because of his own behavior- he was no longer welcome in it.

There! Finally, some hard-nosed toughness! Yes! Now admit it: Doesn't it feel good to actually call the shots - for a change - instead of always having to react to whatever mischief D-Bag decides to pull?

Did I say we were free and clear of his toxicity? *sigh*

He has now launched an all-out Facebook assault claiming he was "tricked" into signing away his rights to the band, and that the rest of us are driven by greed and ego (quick refresher- the rest of the band has poured hundred$/thousand$ into the project, he used one of our fundraisers to scam $200 from his mom lol). Fortunately, the only people paying him any attention are people who wouldn't have been paying *us* any attention in the first place, and his spectacle has actually prompted a couple of his friends to buy digital downloads from our website. So he's more or less our unofficial street-team at this point

What have I been saying all along? There is a certain kind of person who will never - and I do mean never - play nicely with others, no matter how civilly you treat him. In fact, quite the opposite: The more fair and reasonable you are with him, the more he will use your niceness against you: to create drama, to sow the seeds of strife and conflict, to destroy your group unity and all the fruits thereof...and above all, to get his own way - at all costs. D-Bag is apparently such a person.

I can tell you - from personal experience - that the only thing they completely understand is power. Especially power directed against them that they cannot neutralize, redirect or delay. You will get cooperation from them only when they ultimately realize that they have no other choice - and not until that point.

So sorry you had to find out the hard way (and the expensive and painful way). But you did the right thing. Especially the part about buying out D-Bag entirely - with an upfront, lump-sum payment. That alone would have to be worth nearly anything you have to do in order to make it work - rather than having to endure many more years of official contact with the guy...even for the purpose of mailing him his royalty checks.

MM

 

[funkcicle]

There! Finally, some hard-nosed toughness! Yes! Now admit it: Doesn't it feel good to actually call the shots - for a change - instead of always having to react to whatever mischief D-Bag decides to pull?

It absolutely does. In other news, the aforementioned douche is now blatantly and unambiguously threatening my life, my family, and my well-being. This is in response to the Invalid Link Removed we launched on our first project that doesn't involve him in any way (though he has claimed otherwise... apparently he can't even tell whether or not he's in a particular recording). He's claimed that my actions made him suicidal, and that he will "make me" feel the pain I (allegedly) inflicted upon him. Fortunately he doesn't know where I live, does not know the new location of my studio, and likely could not get near me without a half dozen people first letting me know he's in town... but creepy nonetheless.

A question for the talkbass crowd (and no, this isn't the only place I'm soliciting advice ): are threats made through email actionable? My limited research tells me 'probably not', and I've been told by more than one person that his claim of being suicidal might be more actionable than any of the actual threats he's made. In the end my hunch is that he was just drunk (even though it was 10am) and crying out for attention or hoping for a response, but one can never be too careful.

 

[spaz21387]

I always thought any threat if you have proof you could be held accountable... facebook, email, verbal if recorded. I suggest printing all the emails as proof and getting a restraining order. That way when and if anything goes down you have proof hes not sopposed to be anywhere near you.

 

[Munjibunga]

It absolutely does. In other news, the aforementioned douche is now blatantly and unambiguously threatening my life, my family, and my well-being. This is in response to the Invalid Link Removed we launched on our first project that doesn't involve him in any way (though he has claimed otherwise... apparently he can't even tell whether or not he's in a particular recording). He's claimed that my actions made him suicidal, and that he will "make me" feel the pain I (allegedly) inflicted upon him. Fortunately he doesn't know where I live, does not know the new location of my studio, and likely could not get near me without a half dozen people first letting me know he's in town... but creepy nonetheless.

A question for the talkbass crowd (and no, this isn't the only place I'm soliciting advice ): are threats made through email actionable? My limited research tells me 'probably not', and I've been told by more than one person that his claim of being suicidal might be more actionable than any of the actual threats he's made. In the end my hunch is that he was just drunk (even though it was 10am) and crying out for attention or hoping for a response, but one can never be too careful.

You'd better believe the threats are actionable. They may fall under terrorist laws, and the police would be very interested in them. The former bass player in my current band made similar threats against the leader, who happens to be a cop. How stupid can you get? The leader turned the emails over to a detective who had a very stern talk with the douchebag, and we haven't heard from him since.

 

[guy n. cognito]

While the idea of these being terrorist actions is just silly, written threats should be reported to the local police.

 

[Munjibunga]

While the idea of these being terrorist actions is just silly, written threats should be reported to the local police.

Wrong on first point.