how to fix a floppy E string?

[Bryan R. Tyler]

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See you how the B is strung... this helps tighten the feel of the that string by making the travel longer.
Warrior does the same thing by stringing the E & B through the body and rest of the strings use the bridge as the stop.

I'm well acquainted with both features. My fretted has both of them.
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They do not change string tension. I'm not going by personal experience either (although I have that as well)- if either method pulled the string tighter, it would tune the string higher and whatever extra tension is added would have to be removed when detuning the string back to proper pitch. You're left with a string that has extra non-speaking length that can potentially stretch more when plucking, so it could potentially make the string feel looser.

 

[Dbassmon]

I am stating the reason this is done is alter the feel as written in the post, so I stick with that.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I am stating the reason this is done is alter the feel as written in the post, so I stick with that.

Yeah, but it wouldn't make it a tighter feel

 

[Dbassmon]

OK your right you changed my mind, Elrich, Fodera, Warrior are misinformed. You can restring your bass correctly now.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Is it that hard to believe that three woodworkers may be misinformed on an issue of physics? Heck, Fodera doesn't claim it adds tension anymore (they actually say it won't), and for all I know neither do Elrick or Warrior.

 

[Dbassmon]

So is it your position that the string length has no effect of feel?(not actual tension, you keep throwing that out there but you are the only one saying that)

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

No- I've repeatedly said that string length may very well affect feel. Just that it wouldn't make a tighter feel.

 

[Dbassmon]

No- I've repeatedly said that string length may very well affect feel. Just that it wouldn't make a tighter feel.

Excellent, OK we disagree on that point. Carry this one step further... does 35" scale make the B string even looser feeling? That sort of follows your theory...

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Excellent, OK we disagree on that point. Carry this one step further... does 35" scale make the B string even looser feeling? That sort of follows your theory...

No, it doesn't. Changing the scale length changes the string tension. More tension=tighter strings. Adding extra length past the nut/past the saddles does not add tension.

 

[BassieMike]

You said
will check again for buzzing but one thing i did notice was i was getting this annoying buzz when slapping the 3rd fret on the E string and no where else, but it could be the string as its from a really old set i had lying around and i only noticed it after i had changed that string


Hmmmm sounds like a kinked string.

-m

 

[ericw]

I put a set of rotosound 66 .050-.110 on my bass tonight (coming from ghs bass boomers .045-.100 I believe) and they feel slightly better to me, and sound much better (I think). GHS also makes a .050-.115 set but they were not in stock at my local mom/pop store. Mail-order is your friend.

 

[ericw]

Also, +1 for physics.

 

[rosanne]

My MTD Z4 has a floppy E string. A set-up etc. didn't help so I put flats on it and that took care of it.

 

[wideyes]

I always thought string through was a pretty idea with no real quantifiable difference...

 

[Jeff K]

Maybe an extra string tree would help.

 

[thepontif]

The relationship between core size and winding wire size affects tension too. A Fodera .045" G, for example, actually feels noticably different that a .044" because one has a thicker core than the other. I think the .001" difference MUST be less than the tolerance to which the strings are manufactured....so the overall diameter would likely be totally negligable. I'm assuming there....

Maybe you could try some other brands of strings. That can make an enormous difference. Just the gauge of the string isn't what determines it's tension at pitch. Different manufacturers use different materials and construction methods, etc., so you should try many.

Or maybe you need more downbearing at the bridge. That can help make things feel a bit more stiff.

 

[VinKreepo]

I'll say it one last time before this thread gets out of hand.

Why isn't everyone suggesting maybe he needs fretwork? If it only buzzez in a few spots he needs fretwork

 

[thepontif]

I would love to have someone actually completely settle this argument once and for all. Nobody on this board knows enough to comprehensively explain and layout a framework for understanding this topic. Everybody knows a little of this and and little of that and is quick to try to explain why their position cancels the other guys position. But nobody REALLY KNOWS the whole picture on this subject.

The only thing anyone agrees on that is absolutely scientifically inarguable is that STATIC tension at pitch is a function of string SPEAKING length, string temperature, and string mass. Of course the static state of the string isn't the only thing we're concerned with. What makes the string "feel" subjectively different (tighter, looser, stickier, chocolatier) is the big sticking point.

I can give a handful of reasons for why the extra string length probably has a myriad of effects on the sound and how those factors affect the subjective "feel" of the string, and they're all scientifically sound theories. The best I can get to is that nobody HERE can corroborate OR disprove many of them. It would be great to finally hear from someone who has researched this stuff first-hand and moreover who all of us here will just accept as right regardless of what they've always believed. Belief isn't physics, nor is it a valid part of science.

 

[VinKreepo]

I'M GOING TO SETTLE THE ARGUMENT

Here's why the longer NON speaking string length it said to make it have a tighter feel:
If I have more string behind the nut, then I have more string to stretch right? Because I'm sure everyone here agrees that the string tension is the same on BOTH sides of the nut (unless the nut grabs or is a locking nut). So, with more string to stretch, the tuner applies greater force on the string. Although the string is not used behind the nut, IT STILL HAS TO BE STRETCHED. Therefore, because the tuner is tighter due to the EXTRA MASS, when you pluck the string, it does not slip over the nut more.

^^^That's the theory

HOWEVER, as Brian stated, more string means more play, even at higher tension. Thus, when you pluck the string it can move more. BTW even though the tuner is tighter, it's APPLYING the same amount of tension (because if it weren't the note would be higher, the extra tightness is to offset the additional mass). Thus, the tuner is "locked." So now the tuner is locked but the string gives.

Therefore, the string has no advantages or disadvantages when lengthened in the non speaking area.

EDIT: im sure someone here will say "but the tuner wouldn't slip anyways." it's not a question of slipping. its a question of force vs. tension

tension = mass x force

when you increase the NON speaking string length, you increase mass, and thus you have to increase force to keep the same tension.
less NON speaking string length means less mass and force

yet more mass means greater play which is offset by that extra force, therefore there is not difference between the two

 

[MooseLumps]

Just an attempt to clarify.

I'M GOING TO SETTLE THE ARGUMENT

Here's why the longer NON speaking string length it said to make it have a tighter feel:
If I have more string behind the nut, then I have more string to stretch right? Because I'm sure everyone here agrees that the string tension is the same on BOTH sides of the nut (unless the nut grabs or is a locking nut).

I agree.

So, with more string to stretch, the tuner applies greater force on the string.

Nope.

Tuned is tuned. If the string's construction requires it to be at 65lbs of tension to ring at A 440 (Numbers are for examples sake), Its going to be 65 lbs of tension period, unless the nut grabs.

Although the string is not used behind the nut, IT STILL HAS TO BE STRETCHED. Therefore, because the tuner is tighter

Tighter? As in the torque to hold the string, or the torque to move the key? Its going to have to be greater than 65 lbs of torque to hold the string in tune, yes. But 65 lbs is 65 lbs.

due to the EXTRA MASS, when you pluck the string, it does not slip over the nut more.

If the string is slipping over the nut, it's going to be sawing down the nut slot. I admit that it's going to move across the nut, but the majority of its motion will be perpendicular (in a circle)to the string, not parallel with it.

^^^That's the theory

HOWEVER, as Brian stated, more string means more play, even at higher tension.

If you compare three B strings, One that is a heavy gauge, one that is a medium gauge and one that is a light gauge, you will likely find that the heavy gauge one is less floppy. This is because it's increased mass (more wraps, greater core diameter) will require higher tension (Usually) to attain the same pitch. The play will go down with the medium gauge, but then likely increase (a SLIGHT amount) in the light gauge, as it will require less tension to hit the low note, and will have greater circular movement. Depending on the string, it could be a big difference

Thus, when you pluck the string it can move more. BTW even though the tuner is tighter, it's APPLYING the same amount of tension (because if it weren't the note would be higher, the extra tightness is to offset the additional mass). Thus, the tuner is "locked." So now the tuner is locked but the string gives.

Not quite, see above

Therefore, the string has no advantages or disadvantages when lengthened in the non speaking area.

Emphasis mine

EDIT: im sure someone here will say "but the tuner wouldn't slip anyways." it's not a question of slipping. its a question of force vs. tension

tension = mass x force

when you increase the NON speaking string length, you increase mass, and thus you have to increase force to keep the same tension.
less NON speaking string length means less mass and force

yet more mass means greater play which is offset by that extra force, therefore there is not difference between the two

This underlined portion is a bit misleading. In order to tune a string, You must increase tension. wind that peg and get it to tune, and it does not matter how much length there is between the nut and the tuner. You are pulling the entire string tighter. This is when the string goes through its greatest travel over the nut. The string requires XX lbs of tension to some to tune. This tension does not change at the string breaks over the nut (or at the bridge) it is uniform over the entire length of the string. Make the non speaking length a foot or an inch, it's still going to be xx pounds total.


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