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How to play like Phil Lesh?

#41
Ok, I'm in. I can't stand Lesh's bass style, because it so goes against my philosophy of the bass. Having said that, he was perfect for the Dead. I imagine that once you get into the groove of his style, it's not too hard to stay in it. Getting there would be hard work for me, though. Develop your ear; I mean, really develop it. Start with hearing a phrase of a melody, then play it on the bass, or better yet play something damn near it on the bass. Practice doing this until you can do it in real time. Much like bluegrass vocals as one of the posters here said. It's ALL counter melody. IMO
Bill
 
#42
So I just got home from seeing the Dark Star Orchestra (Yes, I know I should be sleeping but too many coffees and diet cokes and here I am at 2:30 AM).

They were pretty amazing at re-creating an actual Grateful Dead live show. The two singers/guitarists actually have better voices than Jerry G and Bob W but sound the same tonally. It was impressive, the overall sound was really excellent. The bass player's tone was monster, it was very bottom heavy but fit the mix beautifully. Just great. The noodling and the long drum solos, like in the old days, were a bit much but part of the charm, I guess. So were the many hundreds of beautiful young things dancing away in the crowd, some VERY close to our personal space, actually a bit TOO close.......makes me nervous, hey, I'm old.....

The crowd was tremendous, and the venue was very crowded with no seating. Standing for three or four hours is not what it used to be....

I couldn't see the stage very well. But I saw, lo and behold, a natural wood colored P-bass with maple neck and thumbrest off the G string, a 62 reissue maybe? Who knows. Too far away. The bass player used a pick and played close to the neck. And he really nailed it. WOW!!

Ed
 
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#43
In 1991 my friend invited me to fill the newly vacated bass chair in his dead tribute/jam band. I started shedding phil's bass lines. I always liked phil's playing but not his tone at all. I quickly found that although I gold get a grasp on his style I did not really enjoy it as much as listening to him. It occured to me that it might be more "deadlike" to be myself and fit my own style and sound to the music while still keeping any main bass hooks intact. The band, fans, swirly spacedancing hippie girls and stoner dudes alike welcomed me and my funkier approach with open arms
I enjoyed the next ten years as the bass player for Buffalo's premier dead band "The Maniacs". I've since moved away and they continue on but I do miss those shows.
I guess the point is with regards to Phil's style is that a large part of it was him (and the rest of the band) having the freedom to express himself the way he saw fit and he injected his playing into a style of music that may otherwise not have worked with that.

If you are looking to play in a GD/ jam style band I would definitely reccomend studying what he does but don't neglect your own style in the process.
 
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#44
Lots of great ideas here -- thanks, everybody!

The idea that has grabbed me the most is that of counterpoint, especially in Baroque music. Makes perfect sense given his classical background. I've already gotten started studying counterpoint --lots of info to be had on the Internet -- and listening to a lot of Bach. This is gonna be fun....
 
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#45
To get an idea how he can really lay it down and let it rip, listen to the way phil plays bertha in 1987 especially, the new years show!! There is also a video on youtube with the title bertha silver stadium. The quality isnt the greatest but you can get the jist of it, not as good as 12/31. just my opinion
 
#46
Baroque bass lines are one of the keys for understanding Phil, IMO. The Bach listening should really help.

I can do a pretty good job of "ape-ing" Phil's thing, when I'm inspired to do so...I was in a GD cover band for a few years back in the 80's and I've listened to, and see, LOTS of shows. Not one since Jerry died, though.

To me, Phil is a scalar-approach player. I think you'll find that the major pentatonic, and the mixolydian mode, are his basic tools. In fact, much of the Dead's music, as I hear it, is moving 7 chords....i.e., there will be "key changes" quite often, because they will string a bunch of 7 chords one after the other. That's my take on it, at least...
 
#48
Sithian said:
Hey there, huge Dead/Lesh fan here-

I can't remember where I read it, but Jerry once said that he never understood Phil's approach to playing bass until one day he listened to an entire Dead show at double speed- and this shed a light on Phil's musicality and approach... Very interesting indeed- I have been meaning to do this but haven't gotten around to it yet!
Click to expand...

I heard that same thing. I must admit that every time I listen to the Dead or Phil Lesh & Friends or whatever, I dig his playing more and more. It's starting to take an influence on my playing- I'm still a pocket player more than anything, but I'm starting to explore more with the melodic approach to playing bass than with just playing the root. And I must say that I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

Just get me to April 12th so I can finally go to Greensboro and see the Dead!!!!
:D
 
#50
I am a fan of GD and their post projects...but never really listened to Phil Lesh play....that being said, I am told more often than not that my style is similar to Phil Lesh and Mike Gordon...which is weird b/c I have never really listened strictly to the basslines in either of those bands. I always take it as a compliment....I used to play strictly with a pick...and close to the neck, so maybe that is why?
 
#52
I find it interesting that there is so much praise for Phil Lesh's playing.

I don't think he plays like a bass player. Nor a guitarist. More like a horn player I guess. That's great for solos, but I don't want to listen to horn lines played throughout all the songs. I never felt any sense of groove from him.

IMO there needs to be some consistent ostinato-like element to a bass line. Even in jazz, where the notes are up to the player, the rhythm tends to be very steady. I always found Phil's playing distracting due to his noodly style.

Oh, and I don't particularly care for his tone either. :spit:

On topic, in addition to playing with a pick by the neck, it sounds like he also plays very high on the neck on the lower strings.
 
#53
smeet said:
I find it interesting that there is so much praise for Phil Lesh's playing.
I don't think he plays like a bass player. :mad:

And bass players play like...?

I suspect someone said these same words about Jamerson, McCartney, Entwistle, Chris Squire and Stanley Clarke at some point. Most of us who appreciate what Phil does know that his approach to playing bass is radically different than how we would structure a bass line in a conventional idiom; e.g., commercial rock n roll or r&b. But the band in which he evolved his style, the Grateful Dead, was anything but conventional. Even so, when you listen to his parts on more "traditional" Dead tracks like "Cumberland Blues" or the non-jam parts of "Truckin'", you hear ostinatos, root notes and all the other good things bass players are supposed to play.

It's all OK with me. I saw the man play a couple months ago and he ripped and looked like he had a blast doing it. Even with that alien-looking Ritter thing hanging off him.
Click to expand...
 
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#54
Remember that Phil was an accomplished violinist and jazz trumpet player WAY before he ever picked up an electric bass. I remember him saying in an interview years ago that the best advice he could give a beginning bass student was to study Bach's Well Tempered Clavier. I did. And after several years realized that Bach took you thru all the possibilities in all twelve keys via the Church Modes (you do remember how to get back to the Myxelodian from the Phygian mode right?). Then Lesh made sense to my when I framed it as a kinda electrified Baroque Garage Band sound.

In the book "How the Fender Bass Changed the World" due credit is given to Phil Lesh and Jack Casady for changing the way we play bass and the kind of equipment we use today.
 
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#55
smeet said:
I find it interesting that there is so much praise for Phil Lesh's playing.

I don't think he plays like a bass player. Nor a guitarist. More like a horn player I guess. That's great for solos, but I don't want to listen to horn lines played throughout all the songs. I never felt any sense of groove from him.

IMO there needs to be some consistent ostinato-like element to a bass line. Even in jazz, where the notes are up to the player, the rhythm tends to be very steady. I always found Phil's playing distracting due to his noodly style.

Oh, and I don't particularly care for his tone either. :spit:

On topic, in addition to playing with a pick by the neck, it sounds like he also plays very high on the neck on the lower strings.
Click to expand...

I agree absolutely. Who would have been a more appropriate bassist for the Grateful Dead than Lesh? Bootsy?
 
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#56
reading all this has been a great time. its nice to see bass plyrs digging phil tho he was no bass player. i only played gtr in dead bands (for a loooong time) before switching to bass. truth is phil had alot to do with it. after many shows of watching jerry and copping his style, i realized that i enjoyed watching phil more. if he was on, the band rocked; when he was off, well, that is a part of the dead experience too.

now, as a bass player i try very hard not to play like phil, cause i don't play in jam bands. ideally, just a little touch of counterpoint and melody can improve a lot of songs, but its gotta be rite on and used sparingly. i try to remember that.

if you wanna play dead tribute music then study phil, if you wanna jam like the dead then play the melody you hear. i am quite sure phil, jerry, and all the guys would tell you NOT to play like them. but as has been ritely pointed out: you have to be in an environment that encourages free expression. i have had the pleasure of "catching it" while improvisng with a group and "it" is addictive. the hardest step is being willing to put yourself out there and risk falling flat on your face.

we had a gtr plyr sit in on bass with us once and he truly embraced the concept. he went for it. it was terrible. somebody mentioned listening to everyone. +1,000.

last thought: there have been a scant few mentions of phil's songs. all the listening suggested so far is among my favorite music. but his songs can really give you a sense of his sense of music. unbroken chain (for sure), box of rain, the eleven, passenger (i guess pride of cucamonga too).

i think passenger is a great but under-appreciated song. i saw dso do it once; it rocked. and the one and only time i saw the dead do unbroken chain was their last west coast show. ok, the memories are starting to flow, i'll shut up now.

:cool:
 
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#60
I have played in a band for the better part of 25 years that has played "in the style of the dead" and what I found is I treat the bass as a harmonizing tool as well as a compliment to the beat. I learned all of this by listening to Phil. As others have said here, his style is derived from his orchestral background and training. It seems to me that he approaches it as an accompaniment to all parts including the vocal line. As I play, I am listening to everything that I can harmonize with. As all have said here, you just have to "listen to the music play" and let it play with you. It is also interesting to compare it to the style of John Kahn who played in Jerry's band as well. He is another fine bass player that got the honor of playing with Jerry. I do believe that Jerry's playing style was a big factor in the development of Phil and John's playing. I also have the pleasure of "Philing in" with a "Dead cover band" currently that does a great job of pulling the Phil out of me. It is grate fun to have the privilege of playing in his shadow.
 
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