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How to Succeed as an Original Band

#281
Okay, a nugget I snipped from the Boss last night.

Stay connected to your roots. They are your musical anchor. More important then even I can emphasize.

Bruce still lives here, and still plays here. Although his life in so many ways is different then it was back when he was hungry, he still is rooted to what this place, Asbury Park and the Jersey shore, is. That has probably propelled his music more then any other thing. When I watched the video last night he stated just that. I'm not going to hang my head completely on his words but it was clear to soo many of us here when he married Juliane Phillips and moved to CA, well, it just wasn't right and you could hear it in his music and musical choices. When he returned home and married Patti, well, suddenly he propelled himself again.

I've seen this with other bands, only to more devastating effects. I won't name them, out of kindness to them, but several of my contemporaries moved from the right coast to the left coast and started morphing themselves into that culture and style. And with the exception of one, all of them put out maybe one or two albums after that, none of which had the fire they had that made them big. They lost their roots.

Now many of you will say that a lot of original hitmakers move during their lives and careers as they move through the stages. Yes, that is true, but many of them also wind up trading on what they were, not who they have become. Original success is just that, original. It comes from where you are and who you are deep down. When you move away from that you often lose the originality. I am sure JBJ will laugh when I say that when he and the boyz went Hollywood their music really started to suck. And they have only recently started to fulfill the old destiny, thanks to more time back here and also bringing the homeboys in (Hugh and Bobbie B). Roots baby.

I'm currently struggling musically for a similar reason. My original mates have moved away now. Brian and Steve have disappeared, Dan is moving south and Kevin is now moved south as well. I've lost an anchor. Its not just to a place either, its to a time and feeling.

Watching the video last night reminded me so much of that. Yes, Garry Tallent lives in the west, and most of the E Street band is spread out geographically, but the main songwriter is still here. And I have to say they all come back here often, so they haven't left completely either.

Original comes from originality. What makes you original is your anchor and root. So if you are on your way or hoping to be on your way, make sure that when you start to hit it or feel like you're hitting it, you always stay close to that place, feeling and time. Your music will work better, you will work better.

If that means that you have to stay near Toledo, Osh Kosh, Oswego or someplace like that, do so. I'm sorry for you though.... ;)
 
#282
Great point Tom, I was thinking the same as I watched The Promise documentary. I look at Born to Run as Bruce's NYC album, Darkness as the album that brought him back to AP( older and wiser than WIESS). Of course its easy for you to stay in your hometown when home is Asbury Park, but I get your point. I've always thought of my band as trying to achieve the "Flagstaff" sound, I realize its a very subjective thing,something you'll never get everyone to agree with. I don't think it has to be where you grew up, as much as where you call "home". Tom Petty grew up in Florida, but his albums scream California, its his home, what he knows. Slightly off subject, I thought Garry lives in Nashville.:bassist:
 
#283
What you said is very true, Tom, especially for my favorite band, Rush. Alex and Geddy were both high-school pals in a Toronto suburb, and they've never left, despite acheiving international success. Neil Peart lives in California, but returns to Toronto often. Roots are very important. Even The Beatles stayed in England, despite the fact that they could have lived anywhere. I know John lived and died in NYC, but that was after the Beatles broke up.
 
#284
aztomr said:
Great point Tom, I was thinking the same as I watched The Promise documentary. I look at Born to Run as Bruce's NYC album, Darkness as the album that brought him back to AP( older and wiser than WIESS). Of course its easy for you to stay in your hometown when home is Asbury Park, but I get your point. I've always thought of my band as trying to achieve the "Flagstaff" sound, I realize its a very subjective thing,something you'll never get everyone to agree with. I don't think it has to be where you grew up, as much as where you call "home". Tom Petty grew up in Florida, but his albums scream California, its his home, what he knows. Slightly off subject, I thought Garry lives in Nashville.:bassist:
Click to expand...


Garry used to live full time in Nashville, but lives in Montana now mostly, with a house still in Nashville.

I even think he mentioned it in his interview in Bass Player magazine a year or so ago.

I agree that its not necessarily where you grew up, but where you have lived. Matthew Sweet spent a sick amount of time in Princeton, NJ, but didn't get his sound until he moved to Athens, GA. So that is the sound he has been able to keep for a good amount of time.

Letters to Cleo basically died because of the move to the left coast. I love Kay Hanley dearly and her new project with Linus of Hollywood called Palmdale, but the old Boston sound and energy is lacking. I also think about the entire Motown stable. Motown hit because of the Detroit feel and what was going on in Detroit. When Motown moved to CA it died hard and relatively quick. I find it hard to even think of a real huge, memorable Motown hit that came out of the LALA land days.
 
#286
First new nugget for the New Year, 2011:

Make sure it is in writing.

I mean everything. I don't know how many young bands I've helped sire that failed to get this point, even when I told them to. No matter what, if you are trying to be the next big thing, you need to have everything you do in writing. Songs/lyrics, music, schedules, calendars, press kits, and that is just the little stuff.

You don't necessarily need official contracts and documents drawn up by lawyers, but you do need everyone to sign agreements on everything the band does as a band. I used to write a couple of pages of stuff and have it signed by everyone individually then kept it in a safe place.

Is the band buying equipment jointly? Put it in writing, how it gets paid for, who maintains it, who stores it, who moves it and what happens to it if the band breaks up or a member leaves the band. Even Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs) should be, sort of like a band handbook. Thanks to software you can quickly type up a few sheets that say officially how often the band will rehearse, what nights, how many gigs, what time before a gig everyone is supposed to be there by, what they need to bring, how guest lists are created and approved, what happens if you don't show up at a rehearsal or gig, what happens if you don't live up to the rules, et cetera. Its not the easiest part and friends in bands often get pissed when you do this, but it makes it simple down the road.

I will point out that in the liner notes on Springsteen's "The Promise" boxed set there is a thank you to a lady who handled "musician contracts." Think about that. In order to release the album and videos they had everyone sign a contract, including Bruce. Everyone in the E Street Band got a contract. Everyone who was on the songs in 1978 got a contract. Everyone in or referenced in the videos got a contract.

Now, all the E Streeters are well off and by and large they could and probably would have done all this on a handshake, but smartly it wasn't done that way. I think the only non-contract, handshake deal in the world I've ever seen that was and is successful is Frankie Valli and Bob Gaudio of the Four Seasons. They have been splitting their earnings equally for the past forty years all on a handshake and it has never been a problem. But that is the rarest exception.

Get everything in writing. Club owner booking you? Run him a contract filled out with the particulars and get him to sign it. Even if you aren't earning a dime. Record label or potential band manager talking to you? Ask them to make offers specifically in writing. Even if you have a handshake deal remind them that until its in writing its not binding.

Start doing this now. Make it your New Year's Resolution. It is easier then you think and much easier in the long run.

tom
 
#287
Happy New Year Tom! Thanks for keeping this thread going, as usual its great advice on many things I never think about( and I put a fair amount of thought into my band). I'm curious what you thought about the "new" cd's on The Promise. I find them to be closer to Working on a Dream than Darkness. I think Bruce knew what to hold back and what to release, 30years later, I think he made the right choices, nothing on the new cd's or Tracks makes me think he missed even once.:bassist:
 
#288
Well aztomr, after listening to all the tracks several times, clearly the strongest were chosen for Darkness. If you watch the video there are several snippets with songs that he began recording then but didn't use until "The River". Watching him play the early Sherry Darling was facinating.

Most of the songs he recorded in that time period wound up with other artists. Fire, Because the Night, Talk to Me, Rendevouz, and a couple of others all were hits for other artists. I am surprised at how the influences behind the songs are so obvious in these tracks. The Buddy Holly inspired song (album one song three, "Its All over now"? - having a senior moment) clearly is that, and there are Spector wall of sound songs there as well.

I would say the songs are more like the River then Working on a Dream, but you can see how his writing has always stayed around a certain sound.

I'm not sure, but I believe originally this wasn't going to be released, but several of the band members had conversations after the 20th anniversary of Darkness about doing something to finish off some of the songs. I'll have to ask Gary what the genesis of this truly was.

Either way, had these songs been completely retouched they would have been even better. But clearly he made all the right choices for Darkness. Amazing.
 
#290
Here is a question I got from a young, local band yesterday, and thought it was worthy of discussion today.

"How often should we pay to play or play for free before we can expect to make some money, and is it okay to do this?"

Okay, now all of us know that for most of your early career, even though you are going to get a piece of the door, often club owners require you to either sell tickets or guarantee a number up front. Always you get paid less then you have to put out or sell, so its pay to play. It's the nature of the biz starting out, and often for many years while you build a following. Is it okay? Well, in my mind no, but there really aren't many other alternatives. My formula on this is it is okay to do this as long as you are getting better and better placement and nights over time, and if promoters and owners get you a few decent opening slots for medium to big acts. If they are constantly booking you for Monday nights in the dead of winter when no one comes to a club, and they are continually asking you for an unreasonable guarantee, time to not do that club for a while.

Once you have built a following such that you can pretty much off hand guarantee that 40-50 people will show at every gig, you can start to ask for a decent pay out.

Playing for free is different. Benefits, like for example the Light Of Day Foundation concerts/events happening in two weeks here in Asbury Park, draw tons of potential future fans. Benefits for sick musicians, children, good causes and even holiday extravaganzas all provide a good platform. As long as they aren't asking you to sell tickets and you can afford to transport yourselves to and from, do as many of them as you are asked to do or more. Be careful, though, as you don't want to become known as the "benefit band" that everyone calls and expects that you will come at the drop of a hat for free at any time. If you have built that 40-50 person guaranteed following, for some of these benefits you can ask for some help in transportation costs, or something. In this case it is totally up to you.

Last year I did a few gigs where it was basically pay to play, but I chose to do them because of the audience that would be there, and in one case it reunited me with a national band that I had opened their original show here in Jersey 15 years ago. We had a great reunion and rocked the bar till it closed, and I got the opportunity to not only open for them but join them the next day for a few songs at their show in NYC. So totally worth it.

That's today's nugget. Anyone else want to polish this one?
 
#291
I just stole this from JP58's thread here, as it reinforces my earlier point and I think original bands thinking about a career need to understand this math. This is not to scare you away, but to make you think about the business and touring side.

jp58posted:


"For the past 5 years my brothers in Oh, Sleeper and myself have sacrificed our lives, our time, relationships, birthdays, holidays, health(haha) to travel around and play shows for our fans. Not to say that isn't been a fun ride!

I would just like to bring a few things to our fans attention:

I would like to show you guys an average day in finances for a "mid-level" band like us. Im going to breakdown the average monetary in and outs of a day on tour.

On tour bands have two ways to make money. Guaranties, and Merchandise.

On tour bands have big bills. The biggest are: Managers, Booking agent, Merch Rates, Merch bills, Food, and of course.. the Gas bill.

Our last headliner tour was an east coast run with 3 other bands. The average guaranty per band was 300$ per band, and around 300$ in merch. This was the average for all 4 bands, for the entire tour.

So we have a 600$ gross income per night. Now lets break this down.

Merchandise is bough, printed, and shipped on the bands dollar. We print most our shirts on American Apparel. They obviously offer the best fitting shirts, and kids are smart about looking good now days. They wont sell unless you have slim fitting, soft shirts. The demand for better quality shirts from bands is higher in last few years.

American Apparel shirts are very pricey to print. usually $7.50 a shirt. More for v-necks, 3/4 sleeve shirts, etc.

We sell our shirts for 15$ at our shows, UNLESS we are on tour with a headliner that demands we price match them.

SO $15 - $7.50 = $7.50. So half is profit. So out of the 300$ the band made in merch, they owe 150$ to the printer.

BUT HOLD ON! Merch rates!

Most nice venues have merch rates, we have seen them be as high 32% gross. Usually they are 25%.

-----

So out of the initial $300 in merch the band made. 25% goes to venue. Thats $75.

$300(gross) - $150(merch cost) - $75(merch venue rate) = $75 (Net profit for the band.)

BUT the breakdown doesnt stop there. If the band has a manager, he takes 15% of Net profit of merch.

SO MERCH TOTAL PER NIGHT:

$75 X .15 = $11.25

$75 - $11.15 = $63.75( TOTAL Net profit in merch for the band.)

--------

Guaranties:

The breakdown in deductions from this money is: 15% to Manager, 10% to booking agent.

$300(gross guaranty) - $45(managers cut 15%) - $30(booking agents cut 10%) = $225

Average Gas bill is around $150. some days way better some days way worse. We have done 17 hour drives..leaveing show and showing up to next one right before we play...many times. Those are a bit more expensive. Most west coast tours we do the average gas bill is around 200-250...but ill use 150 for this example.

$225(guaranty after manage and agent deductions) - $150(gas bill) = $75

We have 6 people on tour, our 5 Guys, and our merch guy "The maze". We give everyone $10 bucks a day to eat on. (This isnt enough when your 6 4 and 200lbs like micah and i by the way)

6 people x $10 = $60

$75 - $60 = $15

$15 Total net profit in Guaranties.

-------

$63.75(Net merch) + $15(Net guaranty) =

$78.75 for the band for the night. out of $600 gross.

if you divide that 6 ways its $13.12 a day per band member.

-------

This doesnt include hotel costs. which are usually 50-60 bucks. Most bands dont get hotels or shower to save money to pay for phone bills.

This does not include Tires/Van payment/Oil changes/Van upkeep registration bla bla/Trailer tires/Gear/etc.

This doesnt include taxes. This doesnt include ROAD TOLLS. Which in the northeast can add up to 20-40bucks a day."

jp58, thanks for this adder.
 
#292
Wow, that's a REAL eye opener! I had no idea the average margins were so slim. No wonder it's more of a young person's game. My hat's off to the dedication and grit it takes to stick something like that out.

Seems I may never be able to be a part of more than a 'hobby' group... the wife would kill me STONE DEAD coming home with numbers like that!

Good read!
 
#293
I read JP58's post and was quite taken aback.

I have been a weekend warrior since 1968 and have never made any real money but have enjoyed the ride. I cannot believe how well paid I have been compared to a struggling pro at a similar level. I think the peak was in the period 1995 - 2000. The gigs available and rates have dropped (for us) considerable since then. YMMV

Years ago we used a booking agent but since the 80's have done all bookings ourselves. This has 2 distinct advantages both for for us and the venues we play. We don't support the booking agents lavish lifestyle and flash car habit, and the venue gets a more appropriate band. Agents will send almost any band to any venue. I know, I have lost count of the number of times we were the wrong band for the venue.

I now throw gig money into a pot and use it to buy gear. I don't need to, I just do it out of interest. In the last 18 months have bought 5 basses (3 pretty decent ones, MM, G&L) and am half way towards a lightweight amp and cab to replace my concrete combo.

Great thread Tom and although I am way too old to even consider going pro I am following it avidly.
 
#294
JP58's post was informative. I like seeing breakdown's like this, without the rose colored glasses. However, maybe I'm just a noob/novice/idiot in asking this, is it wise to be hitting the road using a manager and booking agent for venues only offering 300 dollar gaurantees? Seems like I'd be on both of their asses for the small pay or I wouldn't be using them if that's all they were getting the band.

My own band made more than 300 just asking for tips at a non-paying show recently in DC.
 
#295
delta7fred said:
... I cannot believe how well paid I have been compared to a struggling pro at a similar level.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to say it for fear of sounding ... well... smug, I guess. But since you mentioned it, let me say it too. I too play the 'weekend warrior' role and most of the time I take home comparable pay to what was mentioned in the article above.

Is this really the scene standard for a band gigging for a living?
 
#296
ah shucks only 8 years of gigging experience...haha, guess thsi won't help anyone...

I have been fortunate enough to play in what I would call successful original bands, ie getting gigs where we only have to play originals and getting in excess of $1000.00 for a 1-2 hour show. Which is close to tops that local cover bands are getting for a 4 hour night of music.

I think the most important thing to recognize as an original band, is know your target demographic, this will determine your marketing campaign, and marketing yourself is the number one item that is going to lead to your success however you deem it.

If your goal is to have an artistic effect on a community you want to target that crowd and promote to them to come to shows (you may not be making money) but you can get people to the shows and hopefully have through your performance and writing that influence on those people

The band I played in was focused on the high school and college demographic, we played a lot of fairs, festivals and colleges, and made good money doing so because these types of organizations typically have a budget to put towards the entertainment.

So biggest piece of advice I can give, is learn how to market to your target demographic, again regardless of how you classify success this is probably the biggest tool available to you.

I have seen plenty of bad bands do well in the northeast because they are marketing geniuses....
 
#297
dpbass613 said:
ah shucks only 8 years of gigging experience...haha, guess thsi won't help anyone...

I have been fortunate enough to play in what I would call successful original bands, ie getting gigs where we only have to play originals and getting in excess of $1000.00 for a 1-2 hour show. Which is close to tops that local cover bands are getting for a 4 hour night of music.

I think the most important thing to recognize as an original band, is know your target demographic, this will determine your marketing campaign, and marketing yourself is the number one item that is going to lead to your success however you deem it.

If your goal is to have an artistic effect on a community you want to target that crowd and promote to them to come to shows (you may not be making money) but you can get people to the shows and hopefully have through your performance and writing that influence on those people

The band I played in was focused on the high school and college demographic, we played a lot of fairs, festivals and colleges, and made good money doing so because these types of organizations typically have a budget to put towards the entertainment.

So biggest piece of advice I can give, is learn how to market to your target demographic, again regardless of how you classify success this is probably the biggest tool available to you.

I have seen plenty of bad bands do well in the northeast because they are marketing geniuses....
Click to expand...

Good nugget here. High school and college crowd still have tons of expendable cash and also are the most likely to listen to music and go to shows.

I will agree that one of the best things to do is learn how to book tours and shows yourself to save the percentages, or at least find a reasonably priced manager who will do a load. Unfortunately no one works for free (except the band, ;).

Another reason I started this thread, because I have found that often many think that they just have to play music and let others do the rest and the fortune comes. Quite the opposite. And if you don't understand the business you wind up being the only one who doesn't make any money.

Thanks for the post. Share more please.
 
#298
Playing bass since about 1970. 90% covers, but I have been in a couple of all-originals bands & done some session work. I've never been a decent songwriter myself, & find originals to be not particularly satisfying if they're somebody else's, & since my own aren't very good, I end up doing mostly covers. Studio work, I find especially boring unless I'm either the producer or principal songwriter.

TRichardsbass said:
...
Unfortunately no one works for free (except the band, ;)).

Another reason I started this thread, because I have found that often many think that they just have to play music and let others do the rest and the fortune comes. Quite the opposite. And if you don't understand the business you wind up being the only one who doesn't make any money.
...
Click to expand...

That, right there, may be the single most important point of the entire thread!
 
#299
Want to jump back a page or 2 to the "get it in writing" stuff. I started a thread regarding the situation I'm about to write again about, but didn't get any solid answers. A lot of "GET YOURSELF A LAWYER" stuff, which isn't practical right now and would probably cost me more money than I stand to make. Plus I have no guarantee if I pay a lawyer that they're going to come up with a solution that we'll all agree upon.

I recorded a CD with a guy a few months ago. Wrote the bass parts. The drummer and I signed an agreement stating that any profits made on the songs will be split equally between us, even though we didn't write the actual songs, pay any expenses, or put in anywhere near as much work as this guy. This all originally started as a band, and has evolved into a solo artist thing, ala Springsteen. The guy who wrote the songs decided he wants to call it by his name.

According to the agreement we signed, which is worth crap to me at this point, I'm only getting an equal cut (should anything be made), so long as I'm in the band. That already almost ended when I told the guy there's no way I could rehearse the 3 days 10 hrs a week he wants to rehearse. This is HIS music and he's going to be obviously willing to risk a lot more in time and energy than someone who's simply supporting it. If I had some sort of guarantees, I might be a little more willing - but it's clear that I can easily put a lot of work into this and then have him one day simply say, sorry joe, I'm not happy with this situation. I'm getting myself a new bass player. It's happened to me before, and unfortunately I now trust nobody.

Anyhow, is there any possibility of any kind of insurance against this happening, without spending a bunch in legal fees? Has anyone come up with an agreement that makes sense and is fair for both the songwriters and musicians supporting the songs, that will insure a fare share for anyone putting their time into a project? If not, there needs to be. With making money in music becoming more and more difficult, I really need to ensure that anything I put my time into is going to at least have the potential to earn me some money. I can't put a couple of years into a band on a handshake.

I'd like to do this gig. I've considered telling him to just pay me, but I've got the sense he'll just hunt someone else down willing to do it for free... and I already have an investment.

Would like input.
 

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