I'm pretty sure we all understand why people play for free. And I'm pretty sure we all understand that it is their right.
Just like it's our right to get pissed off at them.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
I just got fired because I wouldn't Play for Free
- Thread starter Jimi Cleek
- Start date
Just like it's our right to get pissed off at them.
My dad is an amateur photographer. He has done weddings for free to gain knowledge of his craft.
Unless, of course, the cost of maintaining the equipment/strings/etc is worth playing
i was mainly trying to make the point that people who play for free arent stupid (or destroying the musicians economy, or hurting the art, blah blah blah) but would rather PAY to play than worry about getting paid.
plenty people are good enough to get paid, but that doesnt mean they want to, or should be. and just because someone is making money off you doesnt mean you should (although, you should)
to be honest, if you are drawing less than a crowd of a few hundred, you shouldnt get paid. otherwise its just amateur hour compared to really fantastic musicians*
*does not include Les Paul jazz performances
Nothing can "lower the value of the music" because value is exactly what someone is willing to pay. If someone isn't willing to pay cash for it, it has no cash value.
The truth is that if your band can bring in enough extra profit over a free band to cover your cost and still make the venue a profit, you will get paid. If you can't, there is no value added for the venue.
If you want to blame anyone it shouldn't be the venues (they're just making a smart business decision) or the musicians playing for free - it should either be the audience that doesn't appreciate the professional over the free artist, or the professional band that isn't enough better than the free artist to generate that appreciation.
I can go watch junior high football for free, and they make money off concessions, etc... but the local college and pro teams still sell tickets for multiple hundreds of dollars. If the demand is there, you will get paid - if it isn't, you can expect to artificially raise the price by artificially limiting the supply.
If people don't value your music enough to pay for it, that is how it will be.
--
aborgman
You won't watch jr. high football for free here in Middle TN. $4-$5 a game. High school ball is even more. Know why? 'Cause they have a BAND that entertains the patrons @ halftime!
How are people gonna know the value of our music at Bar X if we never play there because the tightwad, money-grubbing owner won't pay and won't let the band charge a cover. He's got it MADE until a rival club opens right next door with killer music and a $5 cover. Then he's toast. Then he blames the bands. It has been his greed all along that caused the problem.
You won't watch jr. high football for free here in Middle TN. $4-$5 a game. High school ball is even more. Know why? 'Cause they have a BAND that entertains the patrons @ halftime!
Shoot, around here you can go to a lot of high school games for free, even some semi-pro football teams don't charge.
References, word of mouth from other club owners, etc... if your band really brings in enough money to the venue, the good venues will know - and the bad ones you don't want to play anyway. It's a bands job to sell themselves and convince the venue owner that having that band is a value added proposition over the alternative.
So go play next door if you're good enough - and leave the crappy bar for the free bands... either he'll lose money and change his tune, lose money and go out of business, or NOT lose money and find out that his patrons just aren't discerning enough to care.
If you don't think filet mignon tastes better than hamburger, why would you pay the extra? If the bar patrons don't care about the difference between a good band and a bad one, why should a venue owner pay the extra? Good bands WILL make money (if they're actually good) because they WILL attract people and make the venue money.
If a band isn't good enough to out compete a free band, or is so bad at the business side of things that they can't show a venue owner that they can - I don't feel too sorry for them.
--
aborgman
I see 2 schools on this
1: Younger cats who still havn't had the demands of rent, mortgages, or kids being altruistic to music
2: Older cats who have scraped and struggled ( and sometimes succeeded) to stay working in the music business.
The problem is.... Music is the only business that people would do for free. How many people wan't to sit in with the band. Anyone posting here ask yourself when is the last time you asked to sit in with your garbage man as he collects, or your dentist when he drills? Now the drilling part sounds like fun but it takes skill and practice to do it right or its painful. The more educated and experienced in music you become, the more you can deliver a professional product to a public. If you want to give it away, I can't stop you just as I wouldn't stop you from handing me over half of the bar receipts from a club.
I am the same age as the OP and have had enough resume filling stuff to espouse this. I currently do clubdates and even though I love most of my bands and would play for free with them ( ah, but where?) I'm in reality just an expensive taxi. My meter starts running at the start time and I'm done 4 hours later or there's more money due me. I also know that the people who book these jobs make a big chunk of change on the gig so I don't give my services away . I'm also responsible for an enormous repetoire, and have to deal with the stuffiest clients and the rudest Maitr` D's( This week I have an email with a list of 15 things I can and can't do at this club) maintain a clean tux and show up on time. It costs money to make money.
Sorry for all the wind but to sum it up:
If your playing someone elses material, you better be gettin' paid
1: Younger cats who still havn't had the demands of rent, mortgages, or kids being altruistic to music
2: Older cats who have scraped and struggled ( and sometimes succeeded) to stay working in the music business.
The problem is.... Music is the only business that people would do for free. How many people wan't to sit in with the band. Anyone posting here ask yourself when is the last time you asked to sit in with your garbage man as he collects, or your dentist when he drills? Now the drilling part sounds like fun but it takes skill and practice to do it right or its painful. The more educated and experienced in music you become, the more you can deliver a professional product to a public. If you want to give it away, I can't stop you just as I wouldn't stop you from handing me over half of the bar receipts from a club.
I am the same age as the OP and have had enough resume filling stuff to espouse this. I currently do clubdates and even though I love most of my bands and would play for free with them ( ah, but where?) I'm in reality just an expensive taxi. My meter starts running at the start time and I'm done 4 hours later or there's more money due me. I also know that the people who book these jobs make a big chunk of change on the gig so I don't give my services away . I'm also responsible for an enormous repetoire, and have to deal with the stuffiest clients and the rudest Maitr` D's( This week I have an email with a list of 15 things I can and can't do at this club) maintain a clean tux and show up on time. It costs money to make money.
Sorry for all the wind but to sum it up:
If your playing someone elses material, you better be gettin' paid
i agree that it was in the best for you....i also agree with the no pay=no job=no fired or however he put it. our band plays mostly originals, and some covers, we're "debuting" a few covers this weekend. again for us, rite now, money isnt an issue, while i do push to get somthing, i dont make it the major focus, our job rite now is to get as much exposure as we can. we just finished our first cd and thats gonna be for sale this weekend. while we will take a major loss on that, we will still make money from that and shirts eventually. next summer we plan on going on tour around "somewheres" lol as im not sure where. but back on track i think the rite decision has been made by all
NO PAY, NO PLAY.
The only gig I have ever done for free was for a charity cause. But
you can bet your sweet arss plenty of promo packs and business cards were handed out leading to paying gigs.
The only gig I have ever done for free was for a charity cause. But
you can bet your sweet arss plenty of promo packs and business cards were handed out leading to paying gigs.
I don't, enlighten me.
I suppose....Not that it would make any difference anyway.
I see it as supply and demand. If someone wants to play for free, what can anyone else do about it? It's not like there are a bunch of really good bands lining up to play for free, putting all the 'pros' out of work. Most, as evidenced here, will not play for free, as we/they don't have the means or inclination. Perhaps some of us have had that experience once or twice, but it is certainly not the norm or even common. IME if all you want is to have some fun playing in a band and don't have any rockstar ambitions, playing for free maybe the only way to play in a venue that normally pays for a band. To me it doesn't make any sense that someone who makes great music, and fills every venue would continue to do it without being paid because its "my art". I see no evidence to support this as being a situation that happens regularly.
EDIT: I don't have experience in Austin, New Orleans, Nashville, or other cities full of rock/country/jazz/funk musicians looking for the brass ring. That isn't the point of my post or this thread, as I see it.
Nope, the club owner has tasted the forbidden fruit... Free entertainment. I could walk in with the new Eagles (insert your favorite band here) CD and ask him if we could play a weekend night in Oct. & charge $10 @ the door. No way, no how. "I don't charge people to come in my club..." (Unless he can figure a way to get part of that $10.) As far as a band being good enough, I invite you to come to Nashvegas & check out the talent on lower Broadway. No cover, they play for tips. It blows the "talent" argument outta the water. It's motivated by owner greed, plain & simple.
JAUQO III-X
Inactive
Yep... welcome to capitalism. That owner wouldn't be doing his job if he wasn't trying to take in the most possible money, and send out the least. If his patrons are just as happy with a free band as one that costs money - he'd be stupid to pay. If you can get Grey Goose prices for well-stock Vodka, take the money. If you can attract as many people with Karaoke or a jukebox as a live band, take the money.
If other people are willing to work cheaper than you, and their quality (in the customers eyes - and that is all that matters) is equivalent... you lose. Venues don't pay enough where you live? Move. Provide a service or quality level that people are willing to pay for. Otherwise you will be a starving artist.
There is no "correct" or inherent value in anything - the value is only what someone is willing to pay. It's a bands job to show a venue that they are worth what they charge, it isn't the venues job to make sure bands get fairly renumerated.
--
aborgman
I just ask this simple question:
Is there one musician in this discussion who has NEVER played a free gig???
I think we've all been in that boat at one time or another now whether we're still in that boat or we've moved on to getting paid for gigs-(which I'm now doing after 15+ years of playing) we've all had to do it at least once. So I guess wer're all guilty of cutting the throat of fellow musicians.
Like has been stated this is America and we can all choose to accept what is offered to us or we can sit at home and wait for a band to come along and offer us what we're expecting our music is worth.
JMO
Is there one musician in this discussion who has NEVER played a free gig???
I think we've all been in that boat at one time or another now whether we're still in that boat or we've moved on to getting paid for gigs-(which I'm now doing after 15+ years of playing) we've all had to do it at least once. So I guess wer're all guilty of cutting the throat of fellow musicians.
Like has been stated this is America and we can all choose to accept what is offered to us or we can sit at home and wait for a band to come along and offer us what we're expecting our music is worth.
JMO
its not the occasional freebie thats objected to here but a steady diet of freebies by a band that should be charging for their product
em
I understand that point. Another point is that just because it's a "cover band" doesn't mean the musicians are good enough to warrant paying them whether they want to be payed or NOT.
I am of the mind that if you are providing someone with a service, especially where you have stated that you expect to be paid, that they should pay you for it. It's nice if you have so much money and time that you can afford to play for free, but if you are trying to make a living as a professional musician you aren't going to get too far with the mindset that you play music for the love of it and money is secondary. Also you are going to get yourself a reputation as being easy to take advantage of financially. Personally, I would rather spend my time and effort on my own music if it comes down to playing cover gigs for free. That said I wouldn't hold it against the band if they let me go. There is nothing wrong with people playing music for free and just for the love of it. I think that you have to distinguish between those kinds of people and people that are serious about being professional though.
- Mar 9, 2001
- 963
- 92
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Accugroove Cabinets & MJC Ironworks Strings
