I need $175

[Derry Murbles]

Having moved to LA last year (with no plans to play more seriously than a hobby/fun band; moved for other reasons) this thread has me intensely interested in cracking into this until-now mystical paid gig territory. Reading about the dynamics and day to day ops that you BL’s on here deal with is something in which I’d love to get involved- not actually being a BL, but being one of those names on a call sheet and doing what I can to make myself a desirable player to a band. Also, playing with people who pride themselves on their craft and are serious about it is something I’ve only barely tasted over my “career”.

I’ve only ever been in hobby bands, don’t know any jazz standards, can’t read sheets, don’t have a deep (read:any) repertoire of already learned pop/country/classic songs, and only know rudimentary theory so right now I’m effectively useless to a working band, particularly in this competitive area.

But as I get older (only 31), it’s becoming more and more appealing to put in the work to learn what I need and join the party. I’ve got a very flexible day job (WFH M-F, no nights or weekends), no kids/pets, so I wouldn’t rely on gigging for bills/rent, and I think I’d have plenty of time to put in the work. $50-$100 or more to play out? Yes please! I’ve lugged equipment, drove hours away, set up, took down, etc for free for the last 10 years, so any monetary reward for doing what I already enjoy sounds good to me.

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

Yep. I have the “no way” rate, too, but it’s a lot more than $175. I got fooled once asking a rate I thought was excessive only to have the BL accept it and had to do the gig.

My band will do this for clubs that we really don't want to play. There was one that was an hour and a half drive, plus it was always dead (but the bar didn't care if we drew a crowd). We were basically background music. We gave them some jacked up rate because we really didn't want to play the place. They accepted... whoops. We played there regularly for 2 years with that rate. On the plus side, it was a good place to try out new songs without worrying about train-wrecking in front of a packed club.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Not necessarily. Unions are perfectly legal ways to insure high wages for workers. The LA musician's union is very successful at that. As I'm a non-pro player, I also make sure that when I accept my inevitably-low-paying gigs, I'm NOT stepping on the toes of the union and the gig doesn't fall within union purview.

No musicians union has ever been successful as insuring high wages. Most fail miserably at attracting members, and do nothing more than retain rates that were antiquated 30 years ago.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Sorry, please read my earlier post. I have done it in a dire emergency. But it is an extremely rare occurrence when a sub holds me hostage and extorts more money from me than I consider fair without consequence. I will certainly never call that sub again, even in a more typical non-emergency situation, and I have since networked other more flexible players in that position to be considered for the rare emergency situation.

The whole emergency justification for gouging a band leader for more pay than the other musicians just smacks of something a smarmy unethical plumber would do for a house call on a Sunday or in the middle of the night. I think musicians, especially weekend warriors playing for pocket change, should be above that, but that's just me and I'll say again, people are free to ask whatever fee they want and deal with the consequences afterward.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of doing it to a band of fellow musicians, even in an emergency. I'd consider it karma and more honorable to be supportive in all ways, including taking an equal cut. Paying it forward as it were. Heaven knows that sometimes I make far more than I should for some of my gigs, so it all evens out for me.

Cool. One man's gouging is another's compensation. And I've generated plenty of good karma while being fairly compensated.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It ignores absolutely nothing. The musicians knows what he’s worth, knows what he can get, and isn’t willing to compromise simply because that amount is unobtainable for some of his less-bookable bands.

I stand with my original statement. Assumptions aren't facts so how does someone ignore them?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Basically that is just another way of saying "I really don't want to do this gig, but if you pay me X amount I will deal with it".

... or asking for what you want. I still don't see a problem with that.

 

[buldog5151bass]

No musicians union has ever been successful as insuring high wages. Most fail miserably at attracting members, and do nothing more than retain rates that were antiquated 30 years ago.

I'm the first to latch onto a good thing, and I couldn't see the benefits of the union for me personally.

The point of the union is that everyone would join it, and only play union gigs, so that venues wouldn't have any choice but to pay union scale. For years, no one wanted to give up their decent paying bar and club gigs to the union. That's one reason why $500 gigs in 1981 are still paying $500 (or less).

 

[Brad Johnson]

I can't imagine asking, or telling.

Back in my naive youth, I was playing a gig and talking with one of the other musicians. I said, "Man, this gig doesn't pay very well." She looked at me and said, "You're getting paid????" OOPS and lesson learned.

Exactly. In a non-band situation keep your rate to yourself.

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

"People in Hell want ice cubes"
My wise old father-in-law

 

[RustyAxe]

Laughing hard. I think we've all had experiences like that. it's that old expression -- be careful what you ask for -- you might just get it!

Curious to know what you he wanted you to do...play naked on national television? Play country music? (just kidding..reminds me of another joke when buddy rich went into the hospital, the nurses asked if he was allergic to anything and he said "Country Music").

It was a gig in Bethlehem PA ... I live in Hartford CT, and I expected it to be almost a charity job, but silly me, it was a festival at the Steel Stacks, and evidently paid well, or at least, paid ME well.

 

[crazyBassClown]

If all did this ,staying at home now might very well be worth it in the long run.

Or all the venues would give up on live music completely and move to karaoke/dj's realising they get cheaper entertainment with less hassle than booking bands.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

OK, I hear statements like this from time to time from musicians about the amount of pay they need to go out for the night -- "I need $175 to go out".

I'll be frank, I don't like the statement AT ALL. It ignores a number of facts:

1. Usually, the gig is booked and pay already negotiated. I can't go back and ask for more.
2. Granting the extra pay normally means taking a cut to my personal pay, or cutting the pay of the other guys.
3. As a consequence of #2, some musicians can get a different rate of pay than the others. This can cause hard feelings.
4. Often there isn't room in the market rates for that increase; if I start quoting to include that rate, we sit at home (most of the time).
5. In my genre, good musicians are plentiful, so musicians who raise prices ignore supply and demand.
6. If I reserve the high paying gigs for certain musicians, that's not fair to the guys who slugged out the $100-$125 gigs.

As a band leader, when you get statements like this -- how do you respond? And what is normally the outcome of such conversations? Do you lose the player, or do they stick with you?

First of all, you are running a business. Employees come and go all the time. It’s a fact of life. I would suggest to explain to your players your track record of consistent bookings and average compensation over a period of time. If presented with your poser, “ I need $175” let him (or her) just how may of those gigs he is expecting to get at that pay rate, or his annual goal of income and see if you are competitive with what your can afford to pay him (or her).

But it may be this player is pricing himself out of the market and has an inflated sense of self worth.
My advice for any business owner is only pay what you need to maintain quality.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

For jazz, I'd just pay a pianist $300 and they would be happy and the brunch-goers would be happy.

 

[buldog5151bass]

For jazz, I'd just pay a pianist $300 and they would be happy and the brunch-goers would be happy.[/QUOTE

With all due respect, that's the equivalent of hiring an acoustc guitarist rather than a full rock band.

 

[petrus61]

My guess is that OP would have happily paid $170 for said musician.

 

[PauFerro]

The guys and woman I work with now would be happy to go out as a trio and earn $100 each.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

With all due respect, that's the equivalent of hiring an acoustc guitarist rather than a full rock band

Yep, and a lot of places would rather hire an acoustic guitarist or duo. They're getting more popular - entertainment at a more cost effective price and you don't blast out the crowd. I see the writing on the wall and I'm practicing acoustic.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Yep, and a lot of places would rather hire an acoustic guitarist or duo. They're getting more popular - entertainment at a more cost effective price and you don't blast out the crowd. I see the writing on the wall and I'm practicing acoustic.

How many people here b*tch about it when it happens to a rock band, that the bar owners are cheapskates? It's the equivalent.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

How many people here b*tch about it when it happens to a rock band, that the bar owners are cheapskates? It's the equivalent.

They can b*tch about it all they want. It's economics. Most rock bands are four piece, but when you're talking horn players, you're probably looking at a six piece group minimum. I don't know about your market, but jazz isn't very popular here. You're going to hear the same 50 songs, sorry, standards no matter who is playing and at that point you might as well just play a SiriusXM station.

 

[getrhythm]

Just tell him/her "This is what this gig pays." They'll take it or leave it.
I was a fill in/sub for some folks (husband and wife team) whose gigs were usually pretty far for me. Pay was never great, but it was acceptable.
They once offered me a gig that was a 3 hour drive each way in addition to the 4 hours of playing...for $60.
Considering the distance and time involved I said I'd do it for $100 (I thought that was reasonable). They upped their offer to $80, but I declined.
If I was their regular guy and getting most of the work, I'd have sucked it up and done the gig. But their calls were infrequent and that gig wasn't worth it to me. Haven't heard from them since. And I'm fine with that.
As the sub, you have to decide if the gig is worth it to you.
As the BL, you have to decide if the gig/player is worth paying the extra dough for that particular situation.