I need $175

[buldog5151bass]

They can b*tch about it all they want. It's economics. Most rock bands are four piece, but when you're talking horn players, you're probably looking at a six piece group minimum. I don't know about your market, but jazz isn't very popular here. You're going to hear the same 50 songs, sorry, standards no matter who is playing and at that point you might as well just play a SiriusXM station.

Again, that's the exact same rationale you hear for cover rock bands.

And the majority of jazz bands with horns are quartets (bass, piano, drums, and lead horn player), or quintets, just like rock bands.

 

[dreamadream99]

"I need $175...”

1. Usually, the gig is booked and pay already negotiated. I can't go back and ask for more.
2. Granting the extra pay normally means taking a cut to my personal pay, or cutting the pay of the other guys.
3. As a consequence of #2, some musicians can get a different rate of pay than the others. This can cause hard feelings.
4. Often there isn't room in the market rates for that increase; if I start quoting to include that rate, we sit at home (most of the time).
5. In my genre, good musicians are plentiful, so musicians who raise prices ignore supply and demand.
6. If I reserve the high paying gigs for certain musicians, that's not fair to the guys who slugged out the $100-$125 gigs.

1. All your points are valid if the guy was trying to get $175 out of you. I’m not sure he was. It sounds like he was just refusing the offer, and telling you why.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Again, that's the exact same rationale you hear for cover rock bands.

And the majority of jazz bands with horns are quartets (bass, piano, drums, and lead horn player), or quintets, just like rock bands.

But the exact same factors apply, except that nobody wants to hear jazz.

 

[theduke1]

When I get called to play in the trio I work with or the groups I help out I never ask if I am free and want to pick up a gig it pays what it pays
Duke

 

[buldog5151bass]

But the exact same factors apply, except that nobody wants to hear jazz.

If that's true, why is he gigging regularly? Why are others? Again, others make the same arguments for rock bands.

I'm not saying jazz is as popular as rock, but it's ironic you make the same arguments to talk down jazz that so many here complain about for the decline in rock gigs. I do both, so I see both sides of the coin.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

If that's true, why is he gigging regularly? Why are others? Again, others make the same arguments for rock bands.

I'm not saying jazz is as popular as rock, but it's ironic you make the same arguments to talk down jazz that so many here complain about for the decline in rock gigs. I do both, so I see both sides of the coin.

Still not sure what you're trying to pin on me.

 

[5StringBlues]

I usually name my price but I hardly ever ask for a cut of the tips.


Seems fair.

 

[cnltb]

Or all the venues would give up on live music completely and move to karaoke/dj's realising they get cheaper entertainment with less hassle than booking bands.

Possible, but first I guess one might go out in smaller formats...trios in stead of a 6 piece etc...
One has to adapt.
I am running just a duo for that reason...good value for the venues and good value for us.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It's not extortion to quote a minimum rate of X, no matter how high X is, assuming that that amount is stated up front, not revised upwards from a previously agreed lower amount at the point where it's too late to find an alternative. You can say no to their offer; they can say no to yours.

The hostage and gouging thing is interesting. It's like asking a question and only wanting to hear the answer you want.

I get called for a gig. Before I say yes I get all of the pertinent details to make an informed decision. Before I state a rate I typically wait to hear what is offered. Then I can agree, counter or decline.

So... where is the gouging? How is the contractor being held hostage? They can either accept, counter or decline. No harsh words, not a mark on them. I don't really see it as much different than going to a car dealer and getting indignant about the price. Don't like the price, keep it moving. Nobody owes you doing things for what you want to pay.

Face it, we are not a brotherhood. While some people get along better than others, what is usually lacking is real business sense, which tends to lead to personal feelings over professional issues.

If you somehow found out that you were being paid more than a counterpart, what lengths would you go to to right that "wrong"?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Just tell him/her "This is what this gig pays." They'll take it or leave it.
I was a fill in/sub for some folks (husband and wife team) whose gigs were usually pretty far for me. Pay was never great, but it was acceptable.
They once offered me a gig that was a 3 hour drive each way in addition to the 4 hours of playing...for $60.
Considering the distance and time involved I said I'd do it for $100 (I thought that was reasonable). They upped their offer to $80, but I declined.
If I was their regular guy and getting most of the work, I'd have sucked it up and done the gig. But their calls were infrequent and that gig wasn't worth it to me. Haven't heard from them since. And I'm fine with that.
As the sub, you have to decide if the gig is worth it to you.
As the BL, you have to decide if the gig/player is worth paying the extra dough for that particular situation.

$6/hour.


They were likely having difficulty getting someone to do that for that IMO ridiculous price, particularly with no upside on the horizon (future work).

When I can make more cutting grass than playing, it's time for personal reflection.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Audiences today don't care if its karaoke or live. Its just background music for the mating rituals.

The money has mostly dried up.

A decade ago I had a 3 or 4 piece jazz gig going Friday nights at a local wine bar where folks actually sat and listened. We played it as if it was only us musicians and no audience. It was only $50 and a meal ,but I would take that gig again if the opportunity came up.

Fortunately there are exceptions.

 

[DoctorZee]

Simple - the gig pays "X". Everyone gets an equal share. If you are telling me you won't take any gigs for less than $175, then fine, I won't call you for gigs making less than $175. But I also first call the players who are the easiest to work with.

Their choice.

My wife is a project manager who hires freelance workers all the time. This is exactly how it goes. Some guys need a minimum, but they understand that they're not going to get called for everything. Some guys work for less, and they know they're going to get some crummier jobs. For others, it's case by case and that's okay, too. As long as it's consistent and communicated.

 

[PauFerro]

1. All your points are valid if the guy was trying to get $175 out of you. I’m not sure he was. It sounds like he was just refusing the offer, and telling you why.

I had one guy like that -- the sax player who had a good career with a big name act. I don't think he really wanted to be part of the local scene and maybe quoted high. I have never performed with him.

All the others (and there have been many), without exception, wanted to be part of the project -- and I still perform with all of them -- just not at $175 unless the cash is there and I get my cut. That has happened a couple times, but it's rare.

I had one musician accuse me, for lack of a better word, of "pocketing the lion's share". For a while, I would walk up to him with the deposit check and the balance check and say "Luck is with us, we got paid!". That quieted that concern. In the beginning he also challenged my finding that clubs paid $x. I then found a big name person on the local scene who was open to helping me figure it all out. She wrote an email detailing how the bottom fell out of the local jazz scene during the recession, and how she plays a solo act now to make it pay. She also quoted the rates she used to get for a full band, and what a band like mine could expect -- and it was about what I had told this musician previously.

I forwarded that email to the other sax player (the guy who plays with me still) and he had nothing to say, other than to stop objecting and keep playing.

I was sharing a lot of this with a contractor at a party - guy who builds houses and does major renovations. He said "it sounds like you're running a business" and then he shared similar stories from the people he hires.

I think learning to set the right expectations with contractors and employees is something you have to manage. And you need a narrative ready to counter objections to pay when they aren't valid. It's part of being an entrepreneur or business owner.

Be generous when you can and try to strike that balance between getting work, and getting high pay. It's a tough balancing act.

 

[Bass Viking]

OK, I hear statements like this from time to time from musicians about the amount of pay they need to go out for the night -- "I need $175 to go out".

I'd gladly PAY for the privilege of of playing.

Pau Ferro, I think you've found your man!

 

[okcrum]

Again, that's the exact same rationale you hear for cover rock bands.

And the majority of jazz bands with horns are quartets (bass, piano, drums, and lead horn player), or quintets, just like rock bands.

The majority of jazz bands out here are piano/bass duos or piano trios. The money's better.

 

[buldog5151bass]

The majority of jazz bands out here are piano/bass duos or piano trios. The money's better.

Just like rock bands being replaced by guitar duos. I usually do a quarter. I like having the horn.

 

[Vinny Vincenzo]

Idk, I used to play weddings sometimes 2 a day,real good money used to think, I feel like I’m workin my day job. But when I played a happening room with another band swinging all night for 100 bucks I was happier than a pig in s...! Just me!

 

[chadhargis]

Pau Ferro, I think you've found your man!

Oh yeah! But me in front of 15,000 people and it would be like rock fantasy camp. That’s worth something. Basketball teams do fantasy camps and charge thousands of dollars.

 

[PauFerro]

Pau Ferro, I think you've found your man!

Actually no. I want to pay them, and pay them handsomely -- provided I also get compensated fairly. People who work for free have too many disadvantages -- like going off mission and not caring...

In a non-profit context, it's different though, provided their motives are aligned with the mission...

 

[callofcthulhu]

Actually no. I want to pay them, and pay them handsomely -- provided I also get compensated fairly. People who work for free have too many disadvantages -- like going off mission and not caring...

In a non-profit context, it's different though, provided their motives are aligned with the mission...

Do you hire union musicians?