I think I see a pattern - am I crazy?

[jmattbassplaya]

I might stick around one more gig just to see what happens. If you don't get paid then obviously move on, but if there is a chance he did pay you for the one gig and you forgot then you'd look kinda silly moving on since he does (otherwise) seem like a nice guy.

 

[Melodicgroove]

To the OP. I'm pretty sure I would have kicked that guy's ass the first time it happened.

 

[jazzmonkey]

He screwed you out of your money and lied to your face about it. How is he not a bad guy?

Good point.

I might stick around one more gig just to see what happens. If you don't get paid then obviously move on, but if there is a chance he did pay you for the one gig and you forgot then you'd look kinda silly moving on since he does (otherwise) seem like a nice guy.

And this is exactly what I'm saying right here. I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt, albeit just this one time. If he even farts wrong, I'm out.

 

[carlthegroover]

I see where the OP's coming from here, and I sympathize with him. Some people, especially fairly noble people (with this I mean people who do almost nothing wrong ethically or legally), tend to think the best of people and try to convince themselves of this even if things point otherwise. Maybe the OP's like that (I can't and shouldn't judge character through the web, though). Besides, there is no hard evidence of the payment (of lack thereof), so it falls entirely on the OP's memory and the guitardist's word. Very subjective.

If you pair that with occasional memory errors (tell me about it, I'm pretty oblivious sometimes; but I'm pretty sure most people have them) you'll see why it is reasonable to think that he might have actually received the money and forgot. Granted, I seldom forget about important things, like being safe, keeping my money safe, keeping my car/house keys safe, caring for people I love, important meetings, etc. But it still happens.

I say, OP, follow your hunches and give this guy one more time, but as you said it yourself, do watch him attentively and closely this time during paytime. You'll know if he's screwing you.

 

[ddnidd1]

This guy is giving you a blatant screw job. However, if you think the best thing to do is to bend over a little farther and grab your ankles - go for it. It's what he's counting on.

 

[Munjibunga]

Am I wrong to be little sore about this whole situation?

Yes. You should be a lot sore about the situation.

 

[Munjibunga]

... I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt.

Is there doubt? It sounds like you're not certain whether he paid you or not. Do you get drunk?

 

[jazzmonkey]

There is no doubt. I have never lost money in my life, well without making bets, but you know what I mean. There is a first time for everything though, right? Hence the benefit of the doubt, however highly unlikely it is that I lost money. I would also like to add that my memory is good enough to remember all of the account numbers to all of my credit cards, and my checking account, routing # as well.

I'm always keep my word. I am almost never late, and I always keep up with my responsibilities. I know how to prioritize my life. I do not like to pass judgement on others without having adequate evidence, especially in matters like these when I am essentially calling someone a thief, liar, and a scumbag.

Yes I do drink, but rarely more than once a week. I do get drunk, but I was not drunk during the claimed incident (the show or the purported money exchange).

 

[Basshappi]

Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me.

 

[aledeville]

40 bucks? Tell him everything you ever wanted and walk away. 400 take his front teeth. 4000...

 

[Mystic Michael]

I'm not going to press the issue about the money over the last show, like I said, I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. I am going to approach this with wary caution from here out. I think it may be unreasonable to ask for the money up front, but I will be on him like glue after the next show is over, which is at the end of this month.

OK, look: If you want to give him another chance, that's your business. Here's how I'd do it:

1) Write off the money he already owes you. That's gone. Ancient history. Fuggedaboutit.

2) Have a quick - but serious - chat with the guy. Explain to him that in order to prevent any more such confusing episodes from ever occurring again, it will be necessary to redefine your relationship to make it more businesslike.

3) That means 100% transparency about ALL terms of each gig - before you accept it, and well before you show up to play. This would include not only the total amount of compensation paid by the venue, but the way(s) in which BL intends to divide it up, etc. etc.

4) Make it clear that if the agreement is for your fair share of the cash to be paid directly to you, immediately after the conclusion of each gig, then that is what you expect from now on. NO EXCEPTIONS. If BL has in mind a way to pay you off, other than the one to which you had agreed, then he needs to obtain you prior consent - before you commit to the gig in question. Again, NO EXCEPTIONS.

IMHO, there's no need to pester him for your pay after the next gig (i.e. "be on him like glue"). In fact, that just makes you look weak and silly. If you communicate your terms clearly and strongly enough - especially the NO EXCEPTIONS part - it will not be necessary to give him an explicit ultimatum: He'll understand the unspoken "or else" portion. Trust me.

If he accepts these terms - and much more importantly, if he faithfully abides by them - then well and good. Everybody's happy. But personally, I wouldn't hold my breath. And if/when he ever tries to cheat you again, then walk away immediately - and don't ever look back. Don't accept his phone calls. Nothing. Write him out of your life and move on.

OK?

MM

 

[Stumbo]

Besides, the guy is supposed to be my "bro", how was I supposed to know he was gonna play me? He had been letting me crash at his place for several weeks in a row, having me for dinner, and just being quite amiable.

IME with people like that, they keep a ledger in their head of the all stuff they've done for you and the approximate dollar value, including their time. By not paying you, he's taking payment for all the times he's provide food and housing.

What I don't really get is that based on a telephone call and discussion with him, you lose your memory of what really happened? I mean, why are you going through all your clothes looking for cash that he didn't give you? Are you hypnotized by him or something?

Here's the lesson to learn: anger and emotion expressed through verbal communication does not change the underlying logic of one's argument, e.g. the louder one yells "2+2=5" does not make it true unless one is in an alternate universe.

Also, why wait until after the gig to make your demands? He's fooled you once and made a fool out you...and now you're setting up the situation to blindly go where we've all warned you not to go....

Good luck with that.

PS. I suspect that your passivity and gullibility have a significant impact on your non-band life as well. I used to be like that and it's not a happy place to be. Learning to speak up for yourself in real-time is way better than speaking up (with anger) after the fact and where you have no leverage since the situation creating the problem is history.

Speaking up in real time lets people know where you stand and if they disagree, they can find someone else to manipulate. You gotta take a position and stand up for yourself first and don't worry about how the other guy "feels" in making your decision. All this can be done w/o anger and emotion just logic and facts. It takes practice. You can do it. I did. Many people will get mad/irritated with you if you approach life with this in mind. The question to ask yourself every time you have a discussion with someone is "What's my goal?" That way, if the discussion starts to go off topic, it's easy to get it back.

OR...how about asking for a signed (by you and your buddy)receipt every time you get paid? If you don't have a signed receipt from him (or anyone else in the future), you haven't been paid. Also helps at tax time as well.

You're not the first or the the last person he'll do this to. Based on your comment that he said he was drunk at your sub gig and that's why he didn't remember, I suspect that drugs/alcohol is the cause and the reason for your missing money. He spent it on his addictions and will say or do anything to keep his ready source of cash available for him to dip into when he needs to.

Seems the previous bass player found out the hard way, just like you.

Your comment on the drummer and him being paid more also points to the possibility that he and the drummer are drug/alcohol buddies or possibly that the drummer is his drug connection.

 

[Munjibunga]

There is no doubt. I have never lost money in my life, well without making bets, but you know what I mean. There is a first time for everything though, right? Hence the benefit of the doubt, however highly unlikely it is that I lost money. I would also like to add that my memory is good enough to remember all of the account numbers to all of my credit cards, and my checking account, routing # as well.

I'm always keep my word. I am almost never late, and I always keep up with my responsibilities. I know how to prioritize my life. I do not like to pass judgement on others without having adequate evidence, especially in matters like these when I am essentially calling someone a thief, liar, and a scumbag.

Yes I do drink, but rarely more than once a week. I do get drunk, but I was not drunk during the claimed incident (the show or the purported money exchange).

Alrighty then. In that case, every conversation I had with the guy would start with, "Have you got my forty dollars?"

 

[jmattbassplaya]

You have to be careful with people who are 'good guys' because you'll usually find yourself blinded to their BS more times than not. My guitarist is a good guy (and an incredible player to boot), but he tries to pull similar stuff all the time as well.

I eventually wised up and figured out that him doing nice things (which aren't too dissimilar to your guy letting your crash at his place or him cooking you dinner) are just ways for him to gain leverage and make you 'forget' that he hasn't paid you or upheld his end of the deal. And of course, when you bring it up he'll likely remember what all he has done as 'payment' towards you, while pleading ignorance as to what happened to the money.

 

[jazzmonkey]

Update:

So today BL asked me if we were still on for the upcoming gig. Well I followed this advice, which I think is great advice. Thanks MM!

Have a quick - but serious - chat with the guy. Explain to him that in order to prevent any more such confusing episodes from ever occurring again, it will be necessary to redefine your relationship to make it more businesslike.

That means 100% transparency about ALL terms of each gig - before you accept it, and well before you show up to play. This would include not only the total amount of compensation paid by the venue, but the way(s) in which BL intends to divide it up, etc. etc.

Make it clear that if the agreement is for your fair share of the cash to be paid directly to you, immediately after the conclusion of each gig, then that is what you expect from now on. NO EXCEPTIONS. If BL has in mind a way to pay you off, other than the one to which you had agreed, then he needs to obtain you prior consent - before you commit to the gig in question. Again, NO EXCEPTIONS.

My response to him was pretty much this exactly, but only condensed. The only difference was that all correspondence was via text.

I basically said that if I were going to do the gig, we needed to make the arrangement more professional and businesslike. We needed transparency about how I was to be paid before I agreed to the gig, and if any changes were to be made, he would need my prior consent. Also, transparency about the final sum that band was bringing in. I added that I would provide a written receipt that we would both sign, and he would receive the carbon copy. I finished by saying that I felt that this would be the best way to avoid any possible confusion that could arise, and that it would keep everyone happy.

Well, he did not like that at all. Now he is usually the type to wait 10 minutes to return a text, but in 2 minutes he reponsded with:

"Forget it lol"

7 minutes later:

"Are you serious lol? Forget it dude"

4 minutes later:

"That is the biggest bunch of bull**** I ever heard in my life. No hard feeling but ***king get real man"

So I finally responded with:

"One of us messed up last time and I just don't want another situation like that to happen again. I don't think that's unreasonable."

To which I have not heard back from him yet.

I think it only goes to show that he is really afraid to do anything legit. Someone who honestly thinks that they paid someone would certainly be all for this to avoid any future confusion. There is nothing in my proposed arrangement that is unusual, at least not in the real world. Why wouldn't you want to be clear about the terms up front? Why wouldn't you want to have bona fide evidence that you paid someone? We have a bunch of cash receipt pads at work with carbon copies that we don't even use anymore, and I would have written all of them out myself. He wouldn't have had to do anything different except for sign a receipt and put it in his pocket! I guess it is totally ridiculous in his fantasy land where he calls all the shots and operates in the shadows.

If he valued my friendship at all, it wouldn't have come to this. He would be doing anything he could to make things right, or at least been willing to make some sort of compromise (I know I would for my friends). Instead he was trying to make my perfectly reasonable request sound outlandish. "Get real man" I think I just did.

I never mentioned in any of my prior posts that another part of his defense in that he had already paid me was, "dude, I've got plenty of money, I've got no reason to keep your money." Well if that's the case, then pay me; what's another $40 bucks to you? Also, it you're not concerned about money, then why are you trying to take more pay when you have to drive further? There are other pieces of evidence that point to his lack of integrity, but at this point, they seem unnecessary.

So it only goes to show me that I should have trusted my gut to start with, and, like most of you said, washed my hands of him weeks ago. Well, at least I didn't get taken again, and now he stands more to lose than I had to gain anyway, so now he can sleep in the bed he has made for himself. Enjoy "bro!" It's definitely no sweat off my brow.

Big thanks to everyone who took the time to read my posts and type out replies offering their opinions and advice.

 

[lowfreq33]

Good for you man. Life's too short to be taken advantage of, and you handled it in a calm and professional manner. His response is pretty typical of a scam artist.

 

[walterw]

and the next bass player he sucks in will say something like...

I know a guy who is a phenomenal guitar player, and we've been jamming for a few months now. Well his current band is teetering on the edge of breakup due to internal strife that I'm not entirely familiar with, but he keeps griping on the bass player creating all the drama

...referring to you.

 

[Stumbo]

Glad you used my suggestion about the receipt. IME, anyone who won't make a record of a transaction is someone to steer clear of.

Good luck.

 

[DWBass]

Good for you! Seems he was already planning to screw you and you foiled his plans!

 

[jungleheat]

At least you only got played 2 times.

Now, when he almost inevitably comes back to you in a week or 2 because he can't find a replacement for his show, DON'T be gullible and fall for all his old tricks. Stay firm to needing all those details, receipts, etc... Otherwise you will continue playing for this guy for free.

And OF COURSE he's "determined" to convince you he paid you in the first place. If he can get you to back off (which you have), he gets to keep the money (which he has). And now that he's identified you as a sucker, he will always play the same tricks maybe with subtle variations, but now with the added sting of "come on, remember how you totally forgot I paid you before, that's just how you are dude!", making you (wrongly) question yourself even more.