Glad things worked out for you! It honestly seemed like he was trying to pull your string with this carefree 'business model'.
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I think I see a pattern - am I crazy?
- Thread starter jazzmonkey
- Start date
Latest update.
Just got a message from the guy:
"So ur not gonna do it unless I sign your six page contract? What u want to do it"
4 minutes later:
"What do you want, I'll give it to you ahead of time. Don't feel like you have to, it's a fun, easy gig, twelve minutes from your house where you get to play and drink for free all night. While we haul everything and drive 45 minutes. Sorry about what happened last time but that whole "contract" message was a bunch of crap and you know it. If you do it tell me how much you want and I'll give it to you before the gig. If not, cool, well play conrhole Saturday lol."
All he had to say was, "Ok, fine, full transparency about all the details and a signed receipt." Instead, he offered a shallow "but" apology. He is calling my perfectly reasonable (and commonplace) request "crap." Also, by saying "six page contract" he is putting words in my mouth while simultaneously insulting me with hyperbole. It seems that when saying he will pay me up front it's more like he's trying to "lock me in" to my own terms and screw me again by shorting me off the get-go. AKA: renegotiating the terms. Sure I'll get it up front, but don't expect a cent more, regardless of what the band actually makes from the door. Of course I'm biased at this point, and I believe rightfully so, who wouldn't be after his temper tantrum?
He had time to think about it, and now he realizes what he stands to loose. He has gigs booked at this place every month next year, and the other bass player won't play there anymore, so he really needs me this time, and maybe every other time, or until he finds another sucker. Plus, his reputation if he doesn't try and play cool like he never did anything wrong even after he had his little fit. He must have realized how guilty that made him look.
I'm pretty sure I the other bassist won't play there is b/c they get paid the door. B/C there's no predetermined payout, the BL will just make up a number and pay whatever he feels like paying. I suspect this happens frequently and is one of the main drama points with the band and the other guy.
What should I do? Should I just ignore the guy? Should I tell him to p*** off? I have a draft typed up saying:
"I never said a contract, I said a signed cash receipt. I don't see what's crap about wanting to avoid misunderstandings like last time."
I think ultimately I need to tell him I appreciate the offer, but I will not be able to fulfill the gig, and that don't think I"ll have the time to commit to getting ready for these gigs in the future either. And when he invites me over for cornhole, I'll be unavailable. The only thing I'm afraid that I'll look inflexible, callous jerk who's impossible to deal with.
Just got a message from the guy:
"So ur not gonna do it unless I sign your six page contract? What u want to do it"
4 minutes later:
"What do you want, I'll give it to you ahead of time. Don't feel like you have to, it's a fun, easy gig, twelve minutes from your house where you get to play and drink for free all night. While we haul everything and drive 45 minutes. Sorry about what happened last time but that whole "contract" message was a bunch of crap and you know it. If you do it tell me how much you want and I'll give it to you before the gig. If not, cool, well play conrhole Saturday lol."
All he had to say was, "Ok, fine, full transparency about all the details and a signed receipt." Instead, he offered a shallow "but" apology. He is calling my perfectly reasonable (and commonplace) request "crap." Also, by saying "six page contract" he is putting words in my mouth while simultaneously insulting me with hyperbole. It seems that when saying he will pay me up front it's more like he's trying to "lock me in" to my own terms and screw me again by shorting me off the get-go. AKA: renegotiating the terms. Sure I'll get it up front, but don't expect a cent more, regardless of what the band actually makes from the door. Of course I'm biased at this point, and I believe rightfully so, who wouldn't be after his temper tantrum?
He had time to think about it, and now he realizes what he stands to loose. He has gigs booked at this place every month next year, and the other bass player won't play there anymore, so he really needs me this time, and maybe every other time, or until he finds another sucker. Plus, his reputation if he doesn't try and play cool like he never did anything wrong even after he had his little fit. He must have realized how guilty that made him look.
I'm pretty sure I the other bassist won't play there is b/c they get paid the door. B/C there's no predetermined payout, the BL will just make up a number and pay whatever he feels like paying. I suspect this happens frequently and is one of the main drama points with the band and the other guy.
What should I do? Should I just ignore the guy? Should I tell him to p*** off? I have a draft typed up saying:
"I never said a contract, I said a signed cash receipt. I don't see what's crap about wanting to avoid misunderstandings like last time."
I think ultimately I need to tell him I appreciate the offer, but I will not be able to fulfill the gig, and that don't think I"ll have the time to commit to getting ready for these gigs in the future either. And when he invites me over for cornhole, I'll be unavailable. The only thing I'm afraid that I'll look inflexible, callous jerk who's impossible to deal with.
Eh, he's a bit of a hot head, and a moron. Goofball. Been there. You'll have to decide how much you're willing to put up with. If the gig is fun, and close by, I could see myself putting up with his shenanigans. But I would hand his crap right back to him(respect, yo) and I'd make sure I got paid.
Stop feeling guilty for asserting yourself. That's exactly what the guy is exploiting, why he's accusing you of making unreasonable demands.
If you continue trying to negotiate with this guy, he will continue to use your own words against you.
Who cares what this guy thinks? He's using you.
I suggest you say something like: "Thanks for the call, but I won't be available for this gig." If he asks for a reason, just repeat the same message over and over again. You don't need to explain, just to have him turn your words against you again.
fdeck said:
+1
Unless you do it because you really need the money... walk away and never look back. The guy is not a friend, that much is clear. How can it be fun to play with someone like that? It all sounds like a headache to me.
Free yourself already.
+1000.
I agree with everyone else, tell him you are "no longer available" for any gig, cornhole, etc. Take your toys and go find another sandbox to play in.
Stop feeling like you are the bad guy, because you aren't. Your demands are totally reasonable, and anyone wanting to keep you for future gigs wouldn't act like a 2 year old.
I call it like I see it.
Stop it. Now.
Unless you want to spend the rest of your life as a doormat, grow some balls NOW and tell him you are not interested. No excuses, no softening, no waffling and no making excuses for yourself.
People like this use others' good natures and their INSECURITIES to get what they want. Don't let people play you- not girlfriends, friends, strangers or co-workers. You will be respected for it and your life will be a million times easier.
One of the most liberating things that can happen to you is to realize that usually people really don't think about you all that much, good or bad. Do your thing and enjoy your life. You seem to care about people, care about being at your best for them and not by doing what they want you to do. Etc, etc, etc.
The key to an effective ultimatum is to continue to stand your ground - no matter what. Being prepared to walk away if you don't get what you want is the other key.
If you keep on trying to explain and justify your position after you've already delivered your ultimatum - especially in the face of such an insolent, snarky response from him - the only thing you'll succeed in doing is to undermine your own position by demonstrating weak resolve.
I think the reason why he's still trying to negotiate with you at this point - however grudgingly and resentfully - is because you have some leverage over him: He needs your skills, and he probably doesn't know any other bassists he can call. But that leverage isn't going to last. What do you think he'll do as soon as he meets someone else whom he thinks can play as well as you do? That's right: He'll give you the shaft - again.
Frankly, I think you're done here. How much fun could it be anyway, continuing to gig with such a sleaze? How could you ever let down your guard enough to relax and enjoy yourself? The obvious contempt and disrespect with which he regards you should be more than enough to make your decision clear...
MM
I wouldn't go that far, but... it seems that you would've preferred to play in this band rather than quit so it does seem there is a question as to whether this went as well as possible.
I guess I'll swim against the current here and say that, IMO your earlier response to him about the receipt business was just a tad silly.
It's too late now, but you seem a little regretful for reaching so far with your conditions, since now you "can't" do the gig and are wondering if you were inflexible. I don't blame you, I think they did reach too far. I probably would've said "I'll do this next gig, but I want paid cash at the end, or that's it." Why would you need a receipt? Either you get paid or you don't. If you do, fine. If not, you quit. No receipt necessary.
Yes, it appears that the guitarist is an a**hole. But since you admitted that you're not 100% sure about the previous payment, you allowed the guitarist can claim some moral ground... making the receipt response a little extreme in HIS view, whether right or wrong.
In other words, in HIS mind, the guitarist was somewhat justified in his extreme response to the extreme "receipt" position.
I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong or anything like that, I just think you might have salvaged this playing opportunity with a more level approach. We all want to play, and we all have to work out our differences with our band mates. Obviously some situations won't work and should be abandoned. But when you blow up a gig you sit at home until you find another. Not a fun process.
I agree with those who said you can't hardly do the gig now, it would be too awkward. So you've kind of made your bed. But we live and learn... Good luck.
It depends. What do you want to do?
Maybe you can still salvage this. If you want to, that is.
I don't disagree with all those who are saying to just walk away. But from your posts you seem to want to see if this can possibly work...
If you really want to try again with this guy, I would NOT send your draft. I would say "Listen, I got a little stressed out over that whole payment thing and sort of went extreme. I'm willing to try again but ONLY if you promise I get paid in full at the end of the night. Cool?" Then forget about all this drama and play as if nothing ever happened. And act according to your new resolution; that either you get paid at the end of every gig... EVERY gig... or you are done. Period.
Good luck... again.
(And for those who would say this is being weak and enabling, I say "Whatever." If OP wants to make this work, that's his business. There is no shame in doing what you want alongside an a**hole if you demand respect. Just because there is a question about the guitarist's integrity doesn't mean OP can't play with him with dignity. He just needs to stand up for himself better from now on.)
I can see that you are an easy going guy but you need to stand your ground. Me, I woulda laid into him! He's being an a**hole plain and simple! I wouldn't trust him ever! At this point, consider yourself a 'hired gun', not a band member! Set YOUR price and stick to your guns! I don't even know the guy and he's pissing me off! :scowl:
I gotta agree with Chris. Sometimes I think tb takes too extreme of an approach that really isn't applicable for a simple bar gig. That said, his responses do make him seem at fault - it was as if he knew he was caught. If you want to play with him then you can still try, but if you don't then no worries, and just don't be a jerk in your reply saying 'sorry but I'm done'.
Well, I'm glad I gave him the terms that I did, IMO, it's not extreme or silly. Maybe I could have put it differently, but the underlying message would have been the same. It was a test that he failed miserably, and now the snake is no longer hidden in the grass. It was obvious to me that he never paid me, and like I said in earlier posts, I had no doubt, I was just going through the formalities by looking through my clothes etc. Now his responses make it even more clear what his MO is.
I don't see what's extreme about wanting to be perfectly clear about everything up front. No changing the rules after the hand has been dealt. I don't know why I should have to ask for that anyway, it should go without saying.
And as far as a receipt goes, well that's just good business. I don't see what the big deal is about asking him to sign a receipt that will provide protection for the BOTH of us. After all, I'll be providing the receipt, and it would take 30 seconds. In fact, I'm going to put a cash receipt pad in my gigbag, and it's going to be standard practice for me now. I'm not having that BS again.
As I said before, if this guy really cared about our relationship, he wouldn't have disrespected me as he did, regardless of my requests. It's not like I slapped his mom and slept with his GF, he had no right throwing his little tantrum. Isn't that what it's all about anyway, respect? I have given him nothing but respect, but he has not done the same. Why would I want to salvage a playing situation like that?
MysticMichael - thanks again for your help, I think you've nailed it.
I don't see what's extreme about wanting to be perfectly clear about everything up front. No changing the rules after the hand has been dealt. I don't know why I should have to ask for that anyway, it should go without saying.
And as far as a receipt goes, well that's just good business. I don't see what the big deal is about asking him to sign a receipt that will provide protection for the BOTH of us. After all, I'll be providing the receipt, and it would take 30 seconds. In fact, I'm going to put a cash receipt pad in my gigbag, and it's going to be standard practice for me now. I'm not having that BS again.
As I said before, if this guy really cared about our relationship, he wouldn't have disrespected me as he did, regardless of my requests. It's not like I slapped his mom and slept with his GF, he had no right throwing his little tantrum. Isn't that what it's all about anyway, respect? I have given him nothing but respect, but he has not done the same. Why would I want to salvage a playing situation like that?
MysticMichael - thanks again for your help, I think you've nailed it.
Looks like you are on the right track. Whatever you do DO NOT listen to ChrisB2. OMG worst advice ever, and he would have you playing for this guy for free and being miserable about it until 2050. Whatever you do DON'T back peddle or try to soften things. You are 100% right and have nothing to apologize for and it's this guys fault for not paying you in the first place why you're in this mess in the first place.
I think walking away is probably the best choice at this point. BUT, in situations like these where you gain the upper hand, sometimes it's worth seeing how far you can go with things and getting what you want. The guy already screwed you out of money for the last couple gigs, so I wouldn't feel bad about shooting a little high.
Something like, you get $50 before the gig, and then at the end of the night, you get 1/x of the total take (with x being the number of people in the band), minus the $50 you already got. That way you're covered on both ends. You keep the $50 no matter what the band gets.
And you said he wanted to pay himself and the drummer more because they live farther away or something? Even if that's the case, it shouldn't be more than about $10 difference. Personally, I probably wouldn't accept that, if you live far out, that's just the cost of doing business (and you usually make it up with cheaper housing, etc...). Especially if the guy is saying "he doesn't need" your money because he has so much of his own. Then why does he need to get paid for gas?
I think walking away is probably the best choice at this point. BUT, in situations like these where you gain the upper hand, sometimes it's worth seeing how far you can go with things and getting what you want. The guy already screwed you out of money for the last couple gigs, so I wouldn't feel bad about shooting a little high.
Something like, you get $50 before the gig, and then at the end of the night, you get 1/x of the total take (with x being the number of people in the band), minus the $50 you already got. That way you're covered on both ends. You keep the $50 no matter what the band gets.
And you said he wanted to pay himself and the drummer more because they live farther away or something? Even if that's the case, it shouldn't be more than about $10 difference. Personally, I probably wouldn't accept that, if you live far out, that's just the cost of doing business (and you usually make it up with cheaper housing, etc...). Especially if the guy is saying "he doesn't need" your money because he has so much of his own. Then why does he need to get paid for gas?
I am 46 years old and have left a trail of insanely talented con artists in my wake. I have played with guys that were serious addicts and were easily talented enough to be on the radio and they sucked me into their world, we had INCREDIBLE jams...I paid for their party supplies.and I was making 5/hr back then....and then when it came time to start a band they could not be bothered. I've seen it with singers, drummers...guitarists.....I think it would be better to play with an on the level young dude who's up and coming and practicing hard than with a guy with star potential who has an out of control ego or addiction. He clearly thinks he's better than you and that it's some great privilege for you to play with someone like him. And for the record I've known guys that play with famous acts that act like this. The drummer and the bass player ARE the band, period, all the rest is decoration.
I'd show up for the next gig but not a note would come from my bass until I was paid in full for all previous gigs and the one that night too.
he may be a good player but he sounds like a dick - as someone said already ask for the money he owes you prior to your next gig - if you don't get it move on and don't look back - mark it down to experience.
