It's a wired system. Definitely leaning towards a amp for my signal like the Rolls that was suggested.
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IEM issues, Can't hear myself
- Thread starter jbrooks
- Start date
It's a wired system. Definitely leaning towards a amp for my signal like the Rolls that was suggested.
It is fairly normal to set auxes pre EQ. The idea is channel EQ should be used to make the house mix sound good. This means the sound of your bass coming back to you in your mix is flat. Not everyone finds flat desirable.
As indicated you have global EQ for the mix, this can help but it does not allow you to use any sort of frequency slotting. You should be able to use your SansAmp Para Driver, or some other sort of preamp, to dial in a sound for your bass. As suggested, don't go too crazy boosting the lows. In fact, if possible have the audio tech pick off your IEM signal post HPF, to limit how much sub bass is coming through your IEMs. IMHO most, if not all channel sends should be set up post HPF, otherwise the lows can bleed through open mics and degrade clarity in all of the mixes.
A frequent and often effective recommendation to improve clarity of the bass is boost the mids. Which frequency to boost depends on what you like to hear. The Para Driver has sweepable mids, so experiment to find the frequency range you like.
Although, it may not be appropriate for you use a noticeably distorted tone, you may find that pushing the Drive up just below the point of saturation helps you hear better.
A strategy that I use when I run the house mix and monitors, is to set up the board for a balanced house mix when all faders are at the same position. The advantage of this is it gives me a visual reference to quickly set up and manage the monitor mixes.
I build a custom monitor mix for everyone before sound check starts. I find that most people want to be about 6-10dB louder than other elements in their mix. So if someone sings and plays and instrument, I give them a balanced mix, and then bump their vocal and instrument channel by 6-10dB. This provides a really good starting point for most people. Some are totally satisfied, while others ask for adjustments that are often relatively minor.
You may not necessarily want or need to hear every sound source. If there are non-critical channels, dial them down about 10dB. For non-critical sound sources that bleed through other channels, consider muting them. For example if the drum set is fully mic'ed, you probably don't need to hear every single mic on the drum set.
A stereo IEM mix can be a great improvement over mono. With a mono mix, everything is in the center and the mix tends to get cluttered and incoherent. A stereo mix spreads out the different sound sources, which makes it easier to distinguish between them.
Here is the strategy I use to build a stereo mix. The lowest instruments and snare go dead center. Then each person's sound sources goes center or near center. Everything else is mixed either left or right in 3 to 5dB intervals. The idea is to try and create a mix that sounds natural. Most sound sources should not be panned more than about 15-20dB.
If possible mixing in some sort of ambient effect like a good stereo reverb can help make the space seem a more authentic/realistic. Also, a good reverb can help singers with intonation.
Stereo reverbs are the one possible exception to the panning rule. Stereo reverb may be panned 20dB or more. Hard panning a reverb may still leave sort of a hole in the middle, but you can try it and decide for yourself. Optimum panning can vary with the characteristics of the reverb.
Compression on monitor mixes can be problematic. If a singer is compressed in their mix, it tends to make them feel disconnected from their voice. This can lead to over singing, which may cause them to blow out their voice.
Compression can also cause problems for instrumentalists. Compression lops of the transient peaks and limits dynamic range; so you may have trouble hearing on the loud parts of songs. When you can't hear well enough, you tend to overplay. This can tire out your hand or result in injuries such as blisters.
For the record, I don't compress my bass sound on stage, but when I mix, I use compression on many sound sources.
As indicated you have global EQ for the mix, this can help but it does not allow you to use any sort of frequency slotting. You should be able to use your SansAmp Para Driver, or some other sort of preamp, to dial in a sound for your bass. As suggested, don't go too crazy boosting the lows. In fact, if possible have the audio tech pick off your IEM signal post HPF, to limit how much sub bass is coming through your IEMs. IMHO most, if not all channel sends should be set up post HPF, otherwise the lows can bleed through open mics and degrade clarity in all of the mixes.
A frequent and often effective recommendation to improve clarity of the bass is boost the mids. Which frequency to boost depends on what you like to hear. The Para Driver has sweepable mids, so experiment to find the frequency range you like.
Although, it may not be appropriate for you use a noticeably distorted tone, you may find that pushing the Drive up just below the point of saturation helps you hear better.
A strategy that I use when I run the house mix and monitors, is to set up the board for a balanced house mix when all faders are at the same position. The advantage of this is it gives me a visual reference to quickly set up and manage the monitor mixes.
I build a custom monitor mix for everyone before sound check starts. I find that most people want to be about 6-10dB louder than other elements in their mix. So if someone sings and plays and instrument, I give them a balanced mix, and then bump their vocal and instrument channel by 6-10dB. This provides a really good starting point for most people. Some are totally satisfied, while others ask for adjustments that are often relatively minor.
You may not necessarily want or need to hear every sound source. If there are non-critical channels, dial them down about 10dB. For non-critical sound sources that bleed through other channels, consider muting them. For example if the drum set is fully mic'ed, you probably don't need to hear every single mic on the drum set.
A stereo IEM mix can be a great improvement over mono. With a mono mix, everything is in the center and the mix tends to get cluttered and incoherent. A stereo mix spreads out the different sound sources, which makes it easier to distinguish between them.
Here is the strategy I use to build a stereo mix. The lowest instruments and snare go dead center. Then each person's sound sources goes center or near center. Everything else is mixed either left or right in 3 to 5dB intervals. The idea is to try and create a mix that sounds natural. Most sound sources should not be panned more than about 15-20dB.
If possible mixing in some sort of ambient effect like a good stereo reverb can help make the space seem a more authentic/realistic. Also, a good reverb can help singers with intonation.
Stereo reverbs are the one possible exception to the panning rule. Stereo reverb may be panned 20dB or more. Hard panning a reverb may still leave sort of a hole in the middle, but you can try it and decide for yourself. Optimum panning can vary with the characteristics of the reverb.
Compression on monitor mixes can be problematic. If a singer is compressed in their mix, it tends to make them feel disconnected from their voice. This can lead to over singing, which may cause them to blow out their voice.
Compression can also cause problems for instrumentalists. Compression lops of the transient peaks and limits dynamic range; so you may have trouble hearing on the loud parts of songs. When you can't hear well enough, you tend to overplay. This can tire out your hand or result in injuries such as blisters.
For the record, I don't compress my bass sound on stage, but when I mix, I use compression on many sound sources.
With the other instruments already being at 50% or less in your ear mix This sounds like it's possibly a poor Gain staging issue on your bass cannels signal. Imho your foh engineer needs to be more willing to work with you running a post EQ signal off the sansamp if need be what ever it takes for you get a strong clean signal the boards EQ should be able to still make corrections for the room as long as you aren't boosting or cutting at extreme levels on the pedal atleast. Are you using the sansamp paradrivers XLR di output with it's built in cab sim into the console or it's 1/4 inch output and if so is it running it's own power supply or relying on phantom power? Having owned the Kz As10 previously they can get ear deafeningly loud so it shouldn't be a volume issue with those unless they aren't receiving enough input signal gain. I have had great luck with the Fortin Zuul noise gate cleaning up the signal pretty drastically compared to my Boss ns2. I also swapped my jazz bass pickups for bartolini b-axis pickups they retained the initial stock pickups sound but have ability to get more aggressive if I dig in harder as well as being noiseless /hum canceling. Finally I don't have much hands on with the rolls mixer so i don't have much opinion on it as a solution but I have owned the Behringer pm1, p16m, and currently the Midas dp48 mixer and the rolls is more similar to a small mixer and headphone amp. I find that it's better to turn things down in the ear mix first if possible if I'm having trouble hearing myself. Turning up too much has potential for ear fatigue and introducing clipping distortion.
I've used KZ and Shure in ears among others. The Shure win hands down as live IEM against the KZ. I found the KZ too bassy and lacking mids. The Shure are also better at isolation too. My mix had vocals, horns at 5-10% of bass volume. Keys, guitar at 10-20% and percussion was muted as I can hear them bleeding through. My bass sound was dry pre.
I cant understand kz recommendations for live IEM use. They do sound far and away more lively and detailed listening to recorded music than the Shures, but the loss of isolation and mids are a difficulty on stage.
I cant understand kz recommendations for live IEM use. They do sound far and away more lively and detailed listening to recorded music than the Shures, but the loss of isolation and mids are a difficulty on stage.
The entire point of the PM351 is for your bass and vocals to go through it first. These signals pass through to FOH without any sort of signal shaping. The PM351 is essentially a mini mixer. It allows you to mix the level of your instrument, vocal mic, and a mono or stereo monitor mix. If you don't run you bass and mic through the PM351, it only functions as a headphone amp.
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In the QU mix set up the pre processing setting in post HPF, there is also the option for post preamp.
My gut feeling is a lot of this is falling back on the board set up.
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This depends on the model of kz iems but personally I find most kz models completely destroy even the $1000 shure se846. It could just be your personal taste differing to my own here but it's also possible it could be user error, confirmation bias or the system you are referencing thru isn't giving you a accurate account of their true sound or capabilities.
I went through six pairs of earphones / buds, every time getting very frustrated that the left one did not work properly.....until I finally accepted that it was me, not the technology!
The Sansamp is literally made for that application. Yes, it applies some form of EQ.
But basically, you could say it prepares the bass signal for more ease of processing.
I have used Sansamp products in lots of scenarios with different mixing/FOH people,
with zero issues. Most were very happy when seeing the Sansamp.
Not hearing oneself as the bassist on a personal mix can have three sources:
1. What gets delivered to the board is faulty. Signal too weak (maybe the input is expecting line level, but only sees instrument level?), signal badly EQed, compressed or otherwise mangled ...
2. What happens in the mixing board is to blame. HPF set too high, badly EQed, compressed or otherwise mangled
3. The device to listen back is to blame.
Earbuds not working correctly (bad bass extension, bad seal), HPF/Limiter in the sender/bodypack, your personal mix is channel 4, but you're connected to channel 5.
...Or it could be a mix of all three.
I often have set everything at 50%, with the drums +3-6dB over the rest and the bass close to max.
The bass will stick out in a setting like this. If the earbuds are bad, it will sound anemic, but still be head and shoulders above the rest.
If your input signal is too weak and the gains are maxed and you're still not loud enough in your personal mix, you don't need to worry about playing in key.
The bass will not be any louder than that out front, too.
But basically, you could say it prepares the bass signal for more ease of processing.
I have used Sansamp products in lots of scenarios with different mixing/FOH people,
with zero issues. Most were very happy when seeing the Sansamp.
Not hearing oneself as the bassist on a personal mix can have three sources:
1. What gets delivered to the board is faulty. Signal too weak (maybe the input is expecting line level, but only sees instrument level?), signal badly EQed, compressed or otherwise mangled ...
2. What happens in the mixing board is to blame. HPF set too high, badly EQed, compressed or otherwise mangled
3. The device to listen back is to blame.
Earbuds not working correctly (bad bass extension, bad seal), HPF/Limiter in the sender/bodypack, your personal mix is channel 4, but you're connected to channel 5.
...Or it could be a mix of all three.
I often have set everything at 50%, with the drums +3-6dB over the rest and the bass close to max.
The bass will stick out in a setting like this. If the earbuds are bad, it will sound anemic, but still be head and shoulders above the rest.
If your input signal is too weak and the gains are maxed and you're still not loud enough in your personal mix, you don't need to worry about playing in key.
The bass will not be any louder than that out front, too.
Hearing bass clearly requires a super tight seal between the ear canals and the IEMs. Even a slight gap will reduce the volume of the bass significantly. I would often have trouble with the bass dropping out because of universal fit IEMs slipping slightly until I went with custom molded units.
Once that is verified not to be an issue then if you can go to a stereo aux and pan everything left or right except for the bass and kick and maybe the lead vocal. That helps too. I usually send post EQ DI to the board so that I hear the approximate tone that I am producing rather than a clean tone. But some additional bass channel and/or IEM aux EQ modifications on the mixing board can be helpful too. I'm working with digital mixers so YMMV.
Once that is verified not to be an issue then if you can go to a stereo aux and pan everything left or right except for the bass and kick and maybe the lead vocal. That helps too. I usually send post EQ DI to the board so that I hear the approximate tone that I am producing rather than a clean tone. But some additional bass channel and/or IEM aux EQ modifications on the mixing board can be helpful too. I'm working with digital mixers so YMMV.
I didn’t read your entire post, but I did read that you’re dismissing fit being the problem due to using Comply tips.
Whenever I can’t hear myself (I’m using KZ ZS10 pro’s btw), it’s always one of the following things:
- the bud has come out somewhat from my ear canal but still feels inserted. Shoving it a bit deeper in solves the issue
- I’ve accidentally turned down my wireless receiver because I wear it on my belt and the volume control sometimes rubs against my bass strap.
- I’ve changed something on my pedal board and my gain at the mixer now needs a new adjustment. Note that I said gain, not my volume in my mix or in FOH. I may have EQ’d out some low end, or a pedal change may have had a similar EQ result, or something is no longer at unity gain.
- the mixer has a global compression setting and my bass is causing it to hit the threshold, making me quieter and the treble instruments louder.
I’d check into these things before investing money into the problem.
My amp’s DI has a cab sim built in, and I also sometimes use a VT Bass DI (a Sansamp). I definitely recommend using a decent DI, but that’s not necessarily going to solve your problem.
Whenever I can’t hear myself (I’m using KZ ZS10 pro’s btw), it’s always one of the following things:
- the bud has come out somewhat from my ear canal but still feels inserted. Shoving it a bit deeper in solves the issue
- I’ve accidentally turned down my wireless receiver because I wear it on my belt and the volume control sometimes rubs against my bass strap.
- I’ve changed something on my pedal board and my gain at the mixer now needs a new adjustment. Note that I said gain, not my volume in my mix or in FOH. I may have EQ’d out some low end, or a pedal change may have had a similar EQ result, or something is no longer at unity gain.
- the mixer has a global compression setting and my bass is causing it to hit the threshold, making me quieter and the treble instruments louder.
I’d check into these things before investing money into the problem.
My amp’s DI has a cab sim built in, and I also sometimes use a VT Bass DI (a Sansamp). I definitely recommend using a decent DI, but that’s not necessarily going to solve your problem.
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- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,074
- 9,790
- Disclosures
- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
sounds like a gain staging/gain bottleneck issue somewhere in the chain. those KZ's put out enough volume to blow your ears out if you're not careful, so its likely that something is not optimal from/through the board.
But also, for IEM mixing, I have tried a number of things, and have settled on what I think works the best for me. I turn everything all the way down. Band starts playing. Can I hear myself? no? turn me up to comfortable level. Can I hear drums? yes? great. No? turn hat kick and snare to comfortable level in relation to the comfortable bass level. And move through everything in this way, only adding what you actually need, and always in relation to what you've determined is the right volume of you.
Hope you can unkink the hose and get the levels figured out.
But also, for IEM mixing, I have tried a number of things, and have settled on what I think works the best for me. I turn everything all the way down. Band starts playing. Can I hear myself? no? turn me up to comfortable level. Can I hear drums? yes? great. No? turn hat kick and snare to comfortable level in relation to the comfortable bass level. And move through everything in this way, only adding what you actually need, and always in relation to what you've determined is the right volume of you.
Hope you can unkink the hose and get the levels figured out.
- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,074
- 9,790
- Disclosures
- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
I have been using a Behringer battery belt pack for years and have the first gig coming up using a Rolls personal headphone mixer. My keys player said the sound quality of monitoring himself was night and day. Cant wait.
The nice thing about the rolls is its flexibility.
Yes using the unaffected parallel output from your Paradriver into the Rolls will work perfectly well and I have done just that with my Paradriver. Run the FOH feed into the line in on the Rolls then the Rolls to your ears and mix to you liking. This is one way to do it and is a legit first win.
Ultimately though you will probably move up to running your full signal through the Rolls then send that to FOH (and to your amp when you use one). The Rolls has two XLR outs for your instrument signal that have decent isolation transformers that you can trust. Also do your vox if you are singing.
An added bonus, if that's not enough, is you can practice at home with headphones any hour without disturbing the family or neighbours !
One last thing, I'm a long time Paradriver owner and still love it even though I have spent a boatload on other great boutique stuff. Lovely pedal but go easy on the blend (I never run it full open).
Enjoy all of your nice gear! Cheers.
EDIT (yes another one!): @Ethereal Thorn makes a good point. Remember that turning the FOH signal down on the Rolls can be (is) more effective than boosting your signal too much. Mind your ears!
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I used to use the Rolls but now have a small Mackie mixer. I used the parallel out on the Sansamp to go right into the Rolls so I can control how much I hear. If you do that, you must tell the monitor engineer not to send you back any bass because sometimes FOH will flip the bass polarity if it sounds better. If that flip is done at the input it will go all the way through the signal chain and back to you, creating a weird, nasal sound if you're mixing that with your direct bass tone.
Now I do the same with the little mixer. I send my bass signal direct to my IEM mixer so I don't have to depend on the sound person to feed it back to me. My DI has a "through" connector. If you have a little portable mixer, you can devote one or two inputs from the house monitor feed to you, and one for your bass preamp. Then you tell the house monitor guy not to send you any bass in your In-Ears. They just take an XLR out from your Sansamp or a DI out from anything you're using.
I go one step further and have a stereo mic connected to two more channels that I can raise to hear the room if the monitor mixer guy is messing around or doesn't create a good mix. Midrange is your friend - too much bass can even cause your earphones to pulse and wiggle their way out of your ears.
Now I do the same with the little mixer. I send my bass signal direct to my IEM mixer so I don't have to depend on the sound person to feed it back to me. My DI has a "through" connector. If you have a little portable mixer, you can devote one or two inputs from the house monitor feed to you, and one for your bass preamp. Then you tell the house monitor guy not to send you any bass in your In-Ears. They just take an XLR out from your Sansamp or a DI out from anything you're using.
I go one step further and have a stereo mic connected to two more channels that I can raise to hear the room if the monitor mixer guy is messing around or doesn't create a good mix. Midrange is your friend - too much bass can even cause your earphones to pulse and wiggle their way out of your ears.
skyline_01
Endorsing artist: Nordstrand Audio, Tsunami Cables
I have the very same IEM set and and similar foam tips. I use them when playing with an area artist who is also a trained audio engineer. I have zero issues hearing myself in any situation -- in fact, I've had to tell her to pull my bass down in my mix bc it's so loud and full.
Point being, I agree with others who've said there could be an issue with your signal at the mixing board. I would ask for someone to show you the entire signal path to see if there's something obviously fishy going on.
Point being, I agree with others who've said there could be an issue with your signal at the mixing board. I would ask for someone to show you the entire signal path to see if there's something obviously fishy going on.
