IEM issues, Can't hear myself

[2thAche]

what if you cut the levels of everything else in your mix except bass?

 

[Roxbororob]

jbrooks I have to say that there is a huge wealth of really good information in this thread on it's own. A great example of brethren sharing experience.

A lot of ways to solve your issues but I still say invest in Rolls because: Very big bang for your buck. Good quality fidelity. Its specifically made for the job. Compact and robust. Can be used for silent practice. Domestically made (if that matters).

 

[jbrooks]

It is fairly normal to set auxes pre EQ. The idea is channel EQ should be used to make the house mix sound good. This means the sound of your bass coming back to you in your mix is flat. Not everyone finds flat desirable.

As indicated you have global EQ for the mix, this can help but it does not allow you to use any sort of frequency slotting. You should be able to use your SansAmp Para Driver, or some other sort of preamp, to dial in a sound for your bass. As suggested, don't go too crazy boosting the lows. In fact, if possible have the audio tech pick off your IEM signal post HPF, to limit how much sub bass is coming through your IEMs. IMHO most, if not all channel sends should be set up post HPF, otherwise the lows can bleed through open mics and degrade clarity in all of the mixes.

A frequent and often effective recommendation to improve clarity of the bass is boost the mids. Which frequency to boost depends on what you like to hear. The Para Driver has sweepable mids, so experiment to find the frequency range you like.

Although, it may not be appropriate for you use a noticeably distorted tone, you may find that pushing the Drive up just below the point of saturation helps you hear better.

A strategy that I use when I run the house mix and monitors, is to set up the board for a balanced house mix when all faders are at the same position. The advantage of this is it gives me a visual reference to quickly set up and manage the monitor mixes.

I build a custom monitor mix for everyone before sound check starts. I find that most people want to be about 6-10dB louder than other elements in their mix. So if someone sings and plays and instrument, I give them a balanced mix, and then bump their vocal and instrument channel by 6-10dB. This provides a really good starting point for most people. Some are totally satisfied, while others ask for adjustments that are often relatively minor.

You may not necessarily want or need to hear every sound source. If there are non-critical channels, dial them down about 10dB. For non-critical sound sources that bleed through other channels, consider muting them. For example if the drum set is fully mic'ed, you probably don't need to hear every single mic on the drum set.

A stereo IEM mix can be a great improvement over mono. With a mono mix, everything is in the center and the mix tends to get cluttered and incoherent. A stereo mix spreads out the different sound sources, which makes it easier to distinguish between them.

Here is the strategy I use to build a stereo mix. The lowest instruments and snare go dead center. Then each person's sound sources goes center or near center. Everything else is mixed either left or right in 3 to 5dB intervals. The idea is to try and create a mix that sounds natural. Most sound sources should not be panned more than about 15-20dB.

If possible mixing in some sort of ambient effect like a good stereo reverb can help make the space seem a more authentic/realistic. Also, a good reverb can help singers with intonation.

Stereo reverbs are the one possible exception to the panning rule. Stereo reverb may be panned 20dB or more. Hard panning a reverb may still leave sort of a hole in the middle, but you can try it and decide for yourself. Optimum panning can vary with the characteristics of the reverb.

Compression on monitor mixes can be problematic. If a singer is compressed in their mix, it tends to make them feel disconnected from their voice. This can lead to over singing, which may cause them to blow out their voice.


Compression can also cause problems for instrumentalists. Compression lops of the transient peaks and limits dynamic range; so you may have trouble hearing on the loud parts of songs. When you can't hear well enough, you tend to overplay. This can tire out your hand or result in injuries such as blisters.

For the record, I don't compress my bass sound on stage, but when I mix, I use compression on many sound sources.

The my Q app has EQ. I have the ability to select IN and OUT. It has the traditional Sliders (GEQ) and a parametric (PEQ) option too. It has been recommended by another member to use the parametric over the GEQ.

Looks like I have the ability to turn compression on or off. I imagine this is indepent from any global settings from the board.

I agree with you about boosting the mids. I'm not looking for perfect reproduction but a usable reference. Notes on the low B and E strings cut through louder in the IEM. In the past I felt like I was hitting those strings too hard but listening to the recordings the room is balanced.

I don't think I have the ability to run stereo. You and others and what I read elsewhere talk about parring down the IEM mix to what I need for timing and making changes.

 

[jbrooks]

I have the very same IEM set and and similar foam tips. I use them when playing with an area artist who is also a trained audio engineer. I have zero issues hearing myself in any situation -- in fact, I've had to tell her to pull my bass down in my mix bc it's so loud and full.

Point being, I agree with others who've said there could be an issue with your signal at the mixing board. I would ask for someone to show you the entire signal path to see if there's something obviously fishy going on.

Oh good point. I forgot to put on the original post that I bought a new shielded XLR cable from my DI(s!) to the stage box. One of my first steps in trying to eliminate noise.

 

[jbrooks]

I went through six pairs of earphones / buds, every time getting very frustrated that the left one did not work properly.....until I finally accepted that it was me, not the technology!

I'm at three. Using them at home to practice and listen to music I can say it isn't me. I'm not getting a usable signal live.

 

[jbrooks]

In the QU mix set up the pre processing setting in post HPF, there is also the option for post preamp.

My gut feeling is a lot of this is falling back on the board set up.

Definitely.

The board was installed before I played with the band. The room later was "pinked" by a professional (my son BTW) and the system sound better than ever.

Since then they added a sub and changed the overhead speakers. The room was "pinked" again with the new set up by the installer. I don't think he has the expertise as my son. At this time they added the IEM monitors.

I think those involved didn't know what they didn't know. Not saying I'm an expert but I've been addressing issues since I've started playing. Slowly making progress.

 

[jbrooks]

I agree with everyone who suggested a Rolls headphone monitor

Rolls ordered!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I’m a new church bassist although I’ve played at a couple of other churches in the past. Over all this experience has been positive but I’ve had a few pitfalls along the way.


Since this will be a lengthy post I’ll address the main problem first.


We use IEM and I can never get a level where I can hear myself.


I use the KZ AS10 IEM5 that were recommended on Talk Bass by many members as well as the Comply memory foam inserts so fit isn’t an issue.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GW8GVG1?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002NUSMC8?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1


I previously tried Shure IEM and Shure SRH840 headphones as well.


We use an Allen and Heath QU-24 board. Each IEM monitor has a dedicated line and the ability to adjust the other player’s volume in our individual mix. I’ve got my bass pegged and all the others at less than 50%. Today I could even tell if I was in the right key. More often than not I end up taking one of the ear buds out to be able to hear myself. I know that’s not a good solution.


As suggested in other threads I could par down more in my mix and see what that will do for me.


I am hesitant to mess with the EQ on the app because I don’t know if it is a global or an individual adjustment. The documentation regarding this is lacking. If it only affects my mix I would tweek the frequencies between 80-100 hz and see if there is any improvements. I would have to try this at a practice to be sure there were no global changes to the EQ or others IEM mix.


So here’s how I got to my current situation.


In spite of playing “pro level gear” I’ve battled excessive noise issues and low volume. I’ve went through many steps in order to reduce noise; flat wounds on one bass, Gruv Gear fret wraps, fast fret string dressing which only address string noise.


I also have to add that this is an old building not wired for the best audio experience; entraining a lot of 60 cycle noise made worse with my basses at full volume in spite of the hum cancelling design of the pickups. I also tried a Boss noise gate pedal which did not solve the problem; only when I wasn’t playing. The noise was still distracting while playing.


No help until we tried several different DI box which helped with the noise but not the volume. I was encouraged to play with the volume “all the way up” which does not help with the noise and limits any dynamics in playing.


So I suggested using my Sans Amp DI instead with phantom power since it should be grounded to the board and that pretty much eliminated most of the noise as long as I don’t play with the volume all the way up on the bass. However the worship leader does not want me to use it as an active DI since it will shape the EQ.


I disagree since the EQ will only be engaged if the tone adjustments are engaged. Both electric guitarist play through a Helix Stomp so there are some inherent EQ shaping there. Both have increased their outputs on the Helix as needed.


The reason I’ve included this is that my input and outputs are both significantly boosted on the board. I think engaging the Sans Amp would eliminate the need of boosting my signal both pre and post.


My question is will adjusting my signal by using the SansAmp possible improve what I’m hearing in my monitors?


I believe a stronger signal from my Bass/DI would be better for the mixer than boosting a poor quality signal input and then boosting that signal for the room volume. The idea of “garbage in, garbage” comes to mind. Boosting an inferior signal would boost noise and artifact as well.


My current assets;

Bartolini Dual Coil Five String Jazz Pickups 5-String Original Dual Coil J-Bass - 57J - Bartolini Pickups & Electronics

Now in my three main basses. Noise cancelling design ala a Precision bass with split coils but inline. Put them into the third chasing down a noise issue (Active Fender Jazz Deluxe 1998 now has Audere preamp)

Electronics

Passive: 920D Concentric Jazz Bass Control concentric Jazz Bass® Control Plate Upgrade - JB-CON-C

Active EQ: Audere Audio Pro JZ6D [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Active: John East J Retro J-RETRO 01 | East UK

Sans Amp Para driver Problem with Bass in IEM

Picked this one because I was originally going to play guitar as well as possibly bass.

Boss Chromatic tuner BOSS - TU-3 | Chromatic Tuner

Reading this thread:

Problem with Bass in IEM

I think I might try what the #6 post suggests; amplifying my signal either from the bypass on my tuner pedal or the parallel output of the SansAmp and feeding that into my monitoring mix.

I have a Positive Grid Spark amp that I might try to use to amplify my signal. I practice with it with the AUX input from my computer and headphones. I could feed the IEM output through the AUX input of the amp and the instrument input either from the tuner or preamp. The use the headphone jack of the Spark amp. I could manipulate my volume as well as the volume of the rest of the band via the amp.


Thoughts?

My experience of about 15 years and probably about a thousand worship services with IEMs mostly with bargain basement ear buds (although I upgraded to Shure 215 ear buds) powered by an aviom system. The main problem in hearing yourself is a lack of low mids. 130hz to 170hz. Wiping out any sort of treble to avoid noise, isn’t helping and or boosting frequencies sub 100 hz. Finally, it is critical that you have a good seal with your buds. Sound isolation is critical.

Best wishes.

 

[JRA]

...those suckers are hubbed in my head!

i thought the same but it wasn't until i had someone else play my bass while i messed with the seal (using KZs) --- pressing them in and wiggling them around --- and i realized (for brief moments) that my bass was way too loud and that the seals were, in fact, the issue. so i set about finding the tips that worked for me (i found them, and all is good). i also realized that other tips could work if i could get a similar seal (some tips were impossible to seal correctly), but the ones that work for me best don't require the 'cramming' that others do...and they're just more comfortable.

but my point: lots of players think they have the best seal when actually, they don't. just because you can press them into your skull until you induce pain doesn't mean the seal is good! a good seal will easily force you into subtractive EQ and level setting. with the right seal, you'll be the one who says "too much bass," and small adjustments to any instrument (EQ or levels) will automatically become uber-sensitive.

some of the problems you've described have nothing to do with IEMs (specifically, or in general), but the problem of setting the mix levels to your IEMs sounds like a seal issue to this player.

whatever the causes, i hope you get the problems sorted. good luck!

 

[rtslinger]

Rolls ordered!

Please keep us informed of the out come.
RTS

 

[skyline_01]

Oh good point. I forgot to put on the original post that I bought a new shielded XLR cable from my DI(s!) to the stage box. One of my first steps in trying to eliminate noise.

Right on - that's a good move!

I was speaking mainly about the possibility of a setting/settings being squirrely between your rig and the board (pad switch engaged, fader or knob turned down too low, problem with house DI or snake, etc).

Either way I hope you figure it out sooner than later!

 

[Wasnex]

I don't think I have the ability to run stereo.

Stereo relies on capabilities of the board, available (free) sends, and configuration. I am not familiar with your board, so I don't now if it has the capabilities. @Mike Caldwell probably knows.

If the board is designed to support stereo, it's something you could discuss with your audio tech...and of course the audio techs willingness is also a factor.

 

[fauxtoe]

Rolls ordered!

Good! This is likely going to solve your problem very quickly and takes the soundboard completely out of the equation. I've been using a Rolls for years after having a service where my bass got gained down without my knowledge just before the first song and that's all it took for me to integrate it into my setup. Zero issues since then because what I hear is 100% in my control.

 

[SLO Surfer]

Hope the Rolls helps, but I still think you need to focus on how to get your bass's volume knob turned up with out noise interference. The Rolls may just help you hear that noise interference louder and better.

 

[Discount Bassy]

I run into the same problem with my headphones. It might be the red foam vs. the traditional black coloring.

 

[jbrooks]

I run into the same problem with my headphones. It might be the red foam vs. the traditional black coloring.

I think I "see" your problem.

 

[Discount Bassy]

I think I "see" your problem.

These can help.

 

[CWAnderson]

I've had the KZs get "clogged" with ear wax. It actually makes it seem like one or both aren't working at all and it's very difficult for me to see the layer of wax that is causing the problem.

The screen is easily sealed off when warm wax moves around in the ear during use and in between use hardens. Warm water/cleaner or removing the screens has made a difference for me.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Thoughts?

The answer is simple. Say a prayer to get a new sound person who knows what they're doing.

 

[Egg250]

I'm thinking the band leader/sound tech has your input gain set too low.

Turn all the other inputs in your mix down all the way, then check your level. I'm going to guess you'll still have trouble hearing yourself. The problem isn't your rig, it's the person playing sound tech. I'm guessing in the FOH mix your signal is still turned down quite a bit in comparison to the rest.

Is this a volunteer gig or are they paying you? Either way, the band leader/sound tech is gonna have to make some compromises regarding your sound.