If Behringer and Ampeg had a crack baby....

[thedude77md]

I've actually heard and played a few bugera amps. the 333xl (loosley based on the peavey XXX), the 6260 (based on the peavey 5150) and the BVV3000 (based on the ampeg svt cl). While these amps don't exactly nail the tone, they are (for the most part) quality amps.

The 333xl by no means recreates the xxx but has a great tone to it. Youtube it and see.
The 6260 comes very close to the original peavey 5150 with the right cab.
The BVV3000, like the 6260, comes very close to the amp it's based on and is built like a tank.

$700 does sound ridiculous for a 300 watt all valve amp but with both guitarists in my band sporting bugera amps (the above mentioned 6260 and 333xl) for over a year with no repairs, it wouldn't be too big of a leap for me to get this amp. Surely, when I get the money I will become an SVT snob but until then I wouldn't mind having an all tube amp for the price of an ampeg b2re (which sound like absolute garbage even if it is made by ampeg).

This is my point exactly... I know many musicians that use Behringer gear, most of whom have no idea boards like TB exist and describe their gear as "awesome" and "solid." They are likely right.

I also feel you on Ampeg; though they make some stellar gear, they make some absolute garbage, and have since the SLM days. Having the name seems to make all the difference.

IMO/YMMV, the only amp manufacturers that are legit in their marketing while building quality equipment at appropriate prices (note I am indicating both, not one or the other) these days are Mesa, Genz Benz, GK and Peavey. There seems to be some substantial marketing deception and prices not matching grade (MarkBass cabs come to mind despite appropriately priced amps) amongst the other brands.

 

[Bongolation]

Playing devil's advocate here, of those that have posted to this point, who has owned Behringer gear and had a significant problem with it?

I don't own any significant Behringer gear, but I've had significant problems with all of it that I have.

I've fixed it all myself, but the build quality is atrocious. I've never seen more stripped screws -- for example -- on anything else in my life. Component quality is really low-bid, too, so stuff like noise floor and audio really can vary from one production run to the next. None of it's actually croaked on me, though.

I don't know any brand of gear I'd risk my life (or even serious inconvenience) on, except possibly my Pro-Series SWR stuff, which is beautifully made and uses excellent components.

I've seen so much crap from Ampeg over the years, it's not even funny -- and I'm talking SLM production, not just the ridiculous Asian Musical Chairs Production Road Tour junk, either.

John Frondelli (who would definitely know) told me once a few years ago that Behringer stuff didn't actually fail any more often than other gear in the low-end.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Not gonna lie, I'd actually like to give the BVV3000 a go. I really would love to add a tube amp to my arsenal, but I just don't have the funds to go out and by a CL or DB750 like I want to.

 

[Buster Brown]

honestly, i think it's a case by case issue...take eucerin cream, a moisturizing cream i use. the wal mart version of eucerin is watery and pasty, whereas the real thing is smooth and not at all watery. however, i too have worked a little grocery store work as a resetter, and buster, generally what you said is what people tell me.

I really thought long and hard about going down this road, but what the hell...Pandora is out now.

It is absolutely not true in every case. For example: I will use another companies "private label" of Diet Soda..it does not come fromn the usual bottlers, i.e. Pepsi or Coke or whatever, no, they have a separate license with say Shasta where they are bottling "shasta" and selling it as a private label.

However, many, many companies, such as Del Monte or even Heinz, supplies the EXACT same product, but in other packaging...again, not usually "first run", but end of run product.

Essentially, the same product in "private label" .

Now, I'm not going to say that the "private label" product is always the same quality, Hell, it is usually end run product, as I have stated. But it DOES offer the consumer a lesser price for "essentially" the same product. Some agree, and obviously, some do not.

There is no attempt, however, to make any distinction (as in the case of Behringer) to the more expensive "Labeled" product.

 

[Buster Brown]

No, I didn't.

Read it again. I was referring to Behringer not being the exact same thing, not the store brand ibuprophen, which is. I was going to re-write that sentence, but I didn't think anyone would blow it as "which" always refers to the earliest subject.

And...there is no need to "license" out-of patent drugs. Whether or not a company has somehow finagled trade dress BS (and that's what it is) to include "any ibuprophen drug in a yellow box," I dunno. Maybe.

That's exactly the case. I understand where you are coming from as far as Behringer is concerned. I wouldn't walk across the street to own one. However, competition in the grocery business is as cutthroat a thing as I have ever seen. While the companies (Safeway, Kroger, Price Chopper, Hen Houses, Ralphs, Vons and a host of others) do not "necessariy" have to license said products in all cases, they pay a pretty penny for the license, or right, to carry the product under the Private label. And, by agreeing and paying for the "right" agree to second or end of runs. Saves their customers a few pennies and makes them able to more closely regionalize their customer base.

Behringer, on the other hand, has no compunction whatsoever about what they do....basically rip off the other companies and "build" their own version. Other than waiting for copyright laws to expire, I really don't understand exactly HOW they get away with it...but I was a buyer, not an attorney.

 

[Alex1984]

Klark-Teknik is now own by Behringer? I thought they were part of Telex and Bosch, the guys who own EV and Tapco.

Anyhow, to chime in, when I first started out with my band, as the vocalist, I started with a Behringer mixer and a Behringer Graphic EQ. It has not given me any problems reliability-wise. My friend also uses them in their research lab and they've been good. However, after buying an old Mackie CR1604, I'd have to say that the Mackie is much better.

My biggest gripe though, is that they're really quite deceptive with their marketing. To list an example, the MX1604A that I bought, does anyone know how many channels it has? 12! Yep, that's right, not 16, but 12! To make matters worse, 8 of the 12 channels are stereo channels, rather than having channels that can be individually-adjusted. For me that's really misleading, especially when the industry does have clear expectations of what a "1604", "1642", etc. should be.

P.S.: Also, forgot to mention their annoying naming convention. I wouldn't be surprised if they released a 200W amp and called it the "Euro/UltraBass Pro 500". They've cheapened the prefixes "Euro", "Ultra" and "Pro" for me, to the extent that I shudder a little every time I see these words now.

 

[Azalin]

I can't say much about the bugera guitar/bass heads. Haven't played with one and only witnessed one 4-5 times in a specific club that has it.
I have a behringer combo and it's all fine so far.
It even passed the 2+ live test limit you guys offer to behringer products.

About the behringer products beeing crap and breaking down in their second live or something, and since this is a direct comparison i wanna give my own version of this..

I live in Greece and it has been over 6-7 (tube) ampeg heads breaking down during a live show. Over 15 in total in the last 2 years.
So what that would make of ampeg amps?

And one last thing.
The "you get what you pay for" statement.
I can give quite a few examples (not regarding musical instruments -i'm not that experienced- but heavy trademark items) of products you buy in everyday life of ours where this statement is kinda "old fashioned" in a bad way.


Anyway, everything can break down, everything can sound or look good or bad and very few things today are prototypes.
Test, play and offer your personal experience and mind. And not before.

 

[Nikoubis]

I live in Greece and it has been over 6-7 (tube) ampeg heads breaking down during a live show. Over 15 in total in the last 2 years.
So what that would make of ampeg amps?

Με δεδομένο οτι οι μισοί μπασίστες εδω δεν έχουν ιδέα πώς να δουλέψουν τον ενισχυτή και τα βάζουν όλα στο τέρμα, λογικό είναι να τινάζονται τα μηχανήματα στον αέρα.

 

[aborgman]

Anyhow, if the circuits are nonpatentable (and this covers virtually all music electronics), I'm 100% for anyone making them cheaper and more available to more people.

That's the intent of US patent law.

Bingo.

The intent of IP law is to get the idea into the public sphere and away from "trade secrets" with the idea of advancing general knowledge and the state of the art.

 

[aborgman]

I somewhat see your point and maybe you are referring to something beyond making copies of other companies' products. If it's just the latter, I don't see the difference between Lakland, Sadowsky, SX, Epiphone, Lull, etc. making models that are more or less Fender designs. Same can be said for Hartke or Alembic using the Fender tone stack design in pre-amps. Only other thing I am aware of is a lot of folks thinking they make shoddy gear. Maybe I'm just lucky that I've had good or great experiences with their products.

If I am missing something here, I'm curious... time to do some searching through the forums.

Or the original Marshall amps - merely copies of the Fender 5F6A Bassman.

 

[aborgman]

that's marketing by lying, and i don't dig it.

Nope... they use subjective as opposed to objective terms for a reason.

...and EVERYONE does it. Look at any ad out there and you'll see words like "better" and "best".

 

[aborgman]

I didn't say circuits were unpatentable, but that almost all music gear circuits were, and that's the truth -- because they are virtually all derivative of previous circuits and therefore unpatentable and therefore are 100% in the public domain.

Yep.

When it comes to tube circuits, they're pretty much all yanked right out of the book Vacuum Tube Design by RCA.

 

[aborgman]

Behringer, on the other hand, has no compunction whatsoever about what they do....basically rip off the other companies and "build" their own version. Other than waiting for copyright laws to expire, I really don't understand exactly HOW they get away with it...but I was a buyer, not an attorney.

Ummm... they get away with it because it's the very reason IP laws exist - to get designs into the public domain.

 

[PunkSweeper]

I'd buy it just to repel people who would judge me for my gear.

 

[JimmyM]

Or the original Marshall amps - merely copies of the Fender 5F6A Bassman.

the circuit was the basis for the first few, but he evolved past it and came up with his own design. plus the cabs were nothing like bassman cabs.

 

[synaesthesia]

the circuit was the basis for the first few, but he evolved past it and came up with his own design. plus the cabs were nothing like bassman cabs.

The early Marshalls were based on a Fender design, but was modified with the local vegetables that were available on this side of the pond. They were also spiced to be louder as the designs developed; and they looked and sounded nothing like Fenders.

With Behringer, product proximity placement, or product market intrusion is very very high. They have moved away a bit from this from what they used to do as they have several very original products, but it is still very evident in their ethic.

The Behringer bashing , to me is a legacy of some of their sins, for which they seem unrepentant; but Carvin, Peavey and others also seem to be releasing product after product in all areas without giving real attention to their development/sustainability in the market. Carvin and Peavey can probably contribute to a physical musuem of discontinued items that's bigger than most museums, and biggger than some warehouses. This sort of Market chasing now, is the norm.

 

[aborgman]

the circuit was the basis for the first few, but he evolved past it and came up with his own design.

Not really, no.

He basically came up with some more, slightly modified, RCA tube manual reference designs.

 

[Handyman]

Patents can be renewed, Copyrights and trademarks also.

Technically, a patent cannot be renewed, but its period can be extended by a special act from congress. For all practical purposes, patents have a single 20 year period. Then its fair game for anyone.

Nearly any circuit you'll find in an amplifier like this would have had relevant patents expire long, long ago.

Here's a basic description of how this works, intended for kids.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[modulusman]

The early Marshalls were based on a Fender design, but was modified with the local vegetables that were available on this side of the pond. They were also spiced to be louder as the designs developed; and they looked and sounded nothing like Fenders.

With Behringer, product proximity placement, or product market intrusion is very very high. They have moved away a bit from this from what they used to do as they have several very original products, but it is still very evident in their ethic.

The Behringer bashing , to me is a legacy of some of their sins, for which they seem unrepentant; but Carvin, Peavey and others also seem to be releasing product after product in all areas without giving real attention to their development/sustainability in the market. Carvin and Peavey can probably contribute to a physical musuem of discontinued items that's bigger than most museums, and biggger than some warehouses. This sort of Market chasing now, is the norm.

How many discontinued products will blowinger have after they have been in business as long as Peavey-45 years or Carvin-60 Years?

 

[synaesthesia]

How many discontinued products will blowinger have after they have been in business as long as Peavey-45 years or Carvin-60 Years?

The Japanese manufacturing industry was like that since their early business boom in the 60's & 70s. Models change often to chase the market trends, and if your competitor had a good product, you make one in that territory as well, or a few....

Yamaha probably have more discontinued items than any manufacturer in the world, and they have them at all scales - entry level to high end, they also have some good original products.

if you were a manufacturer you'd be doing the same, you'd be studying the market and you'd get a product line, e.g. for electric bass that had a 'p' , a 'j', a 'mm', a modern six thru neck etc etc ....How close you get to the perceived 'market leaders' is the question.

Still, manufacturers who make products that follow markets leaders serve a market gap, not everyone can afford the market leading product. That's what it's about.