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If Behringer and Ampeg had a crack baby....

So how do all you anti Behringer copy folks feel about Columbia Data Products and Compaq reverse engineering and cloning the IBM PC?

None of you are using a non-IBM, x86 based PC are you? I mean - it's a total copy/ripoff of IBM property. Couldn't those other computer companies come up with their own design?
 
personally, i have nothing against behringer. i have a few of their products (eq's for my PA) and so far, i've found them to be reliable and sound about as good as most other equivalent eq's. i don't have a problem with them 'cloning' any product either, as i think that it's up to the buyer to decide whether they spend their money on them or not, or if it performs anywhere near close to the original. yes, i think that many of their products are substandard, but so is their price on them.

to me, their biggest flaw is that some of their adverstising can be a little misleading (i.e. in one instance, i can remember them calling one of their hybrid bass amps a 'tube amp'), but that also should be pretty much evident to anyone that is considering buying one.

IMO, in the end, a good product will be valued for its merits and remain desirable, and a bad one fade away into obsolesence.
 
So how do all you anti Behringer copy folks feel about Columbia Data Products and Compaq reverse engineering and cloning the IBM PC?

None of you are using a non-IBM, x86 based PC are you? I mean - it's a total copy/ripoff of IBM property. Couldn't those other computer companies come up with their own design?

This is almost certainly going to be refuted or "shot down," but I don't think it sits well with these high-dollar Ampeg users that anyone can plunk a trio of C-notes and get a tone that, they know in their hearts, wont be nearly $700 worse than their precious.
 
So how do all you anti Behringer copy folks feel about Columbia Data Products and Compaq reverse engineering and cloning the IBM PC?

None of you are using a non-IBM, x86 based PC are you? I mean - it's a total copy/ripoff of IBM property. Couldn't those other computer companies come up with their own design?

Frankly, it doesn't bother me in the least. If I remember correctly, IBM did the same thing to Commodore way back when (something like '84) in order to develop their graphics capabilities. Completely bankrupted Commodore who( at the time) had the most advanced OS on the market followed (in a close second by Apple).

Live by the sword......

But in all reality..I don't pretend to understand the complexities of this "copying" thing. All I know is that my "personal" opinion is that it isn't right. Is it legal? apparently so. Is is "morally right"? That's for the individual to decide..
 
Playing devil's advocate here, of those that have posted to this point, who has owned Behringer gear and had a significant problem with it?

The reason I ask is that I have seen threads here on TB regarding gear from just about every manufacturer having problems or crapping out at one point or another. I by no means think Behringer is top of the line stuff, but threads I've seen here indicate that Behringer gear is no more or less reliable than other brands; it just seems people like to chime in because they have a reputation of being "cheap" (as in quality, not price) just as Peavey had back in the late 70's/early 80's and still exists as a stigma to this day.

I am not taking the time to search through the forums, but off the top of my head, the most common technical issue threads I've seen are regarding Ampeg, MarkBass, and Aguilar (yes, Aguilar!) amps. Personally, the amps I have had technical issues with were MarkBass and Sunn, albeit Fender owned but branded as Sunn.


I don't like Behringer because I've had bad experiences with them. I'm sure they have gems, and I know people that love their Behringer of Bugera stuff. I just haven't had good experiences with them. If it sounds like an SVT, I'd buy the BVT.
 
Frankly, it doesn't bother me in the least. If I remember correctly, IBM did the same thing to Commodore way back when (something like '84) in order to develop their graphics capabilities. Completely bankrupted Commodore who( at the time) had the most advanced OS on the market followed (in a close second by Apple).

You mean Apple and Microsoft who stole their UI ideas from Xerox-PARC? The folks that invented "windowing" and the mouse.

Plus all that happened AFTER the first IBM PC's were cloned (1980).


But in all reality..I don't pretend to understand the complexities of this "copying" thing. All I know is that my "personal" opinion is that it isn't right. Is it legal? apparently so. Is is "morally right"? That's for the individual to decide..

Copying post the expiration of IP protection - absolutely morally right. In fact, the entirety of the reason for existence of IP law.

Patent law says basically the following:

The government will give you a government enforced monopoly for a set time period in exchange for you releasing your idea to the general public to advance the state of the art.

The person patenting an invention is given a benefit (time limited monopoly) in exchange for allowing the invention to become public domain.
 
hey, that's a decision we all have to make for ourselves. i made my decision, you are free to make yours.

btw, i worked my balls off to be able to afford the nice stuff i've got. don't resent people who buy nice stuff for working hard.


Yep..this one tickles me..I worked my butt OFF for a couple of summers to afford a brand new Sunn Bass amp and cab...One of the happiest days of my life!

Walked in that store with cash in hand (seems like it was abou $800 - and in 1973 that was a BUNCH of money) and was told by the owner that there had just been a price increase! :crying:

He finally relented and gave me the damn thing at the old price.....guess he got tired of my wailing...:D

But understand...my folks weren't too keen on te whole "bass player" thing...that is until the first album came out...:D
 
btw, i worked my balls off to be able to afford the nice stuff i've got. don't resent people who buy nice stuff for working hard.

Me either.

I also don't resent people who take advantage of the lower priced products and advancement of the state of the art provided by expirations in IP protections.

Everyone benefits.

The original inventor benefits by securing a limited term monopoly on his idea, and society benefits by the idea going into the public domain - both through cheaper products and the advancement of the state of the art.
 
well you have a point, borgie. they're apparently not doing anything illegal (anymore). and if folks want to buy it and think they're getting a bargain, it's their money to do as they wish. but i don't have to think their business model isn't lame and i don't have to pat them on the back and say, "you go, girl!"
 
Here's a basic description of how this works, intended for kids. :)
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A superb and passionate exposition of American patent law is in the opening of this book (of all places):
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It's the best thing I think I've ever read explaining the intent and beauty of US patents, and it makes the case so clearly that even the most stubborn gear-forum gristlehead can usually understand it.

The problem in these discussions is that the people arguing the loudest about "ripping off someone's design" are the most technically ignorant (and if you think it's bad here, try it on guitar forums), those who do not understand that changing a couple of values in a dirtbox's components isn't Big Science (even though it sounds "awesome"), but just a trivial advancement in the evolution of established, generic tech, and therefore the property of EVERYONE. Your "awesome" dirtbox or tube amp design is analogous to an opinion or an idea. It's probably nowhere as original as you think, and certainly not patentable. If you can develop it enough to make money off it or get elected to office on its appeal, fine -- it may be a good idea that makes life better -- but everyone else is as perfectly free to share, exploit, sell, modify or do anything else with "your idea" as you are. "Ideas" are not patentable.

It's mere intellectual exercise, not intellectual property.

If, on the other hand, you really have a truly unique piece of technology that is significant and truly original, file for a patent. In the unlikely event you're onto something that's as special as you think it is, the patent office will recognize it as such and grant you an exclusive right to its commercial exploitation for a fixed amount of time. At the end of that period, your technology belongs to everyone in the world -- hopefully to make it a better place in which to live.

What's disturbing is the crooked application of copyright and trade dress laws to underhandedly and unethically extend the practical limits of of expired patents.

What bothers me the most in these discussions, though, is how people will consistently argue against their own interests (and the law) in seeing better and more affordable gear more broadly available.
 
All in all - it's a legal decision as to whether a company is copying another.
Two companies can fight it out in court or they can settle. If you see some company copying another companies design you should report it to the FTC or your attorney general.

Really evil copying is taking something and not making it look anything like the original. Instead hiding it inside some key components of another companies design. Every company takes apart their competitions gear and has a look. They'd be dumb not to. And you can bet when they see something done right or different that they hadn't thought of, it will end up buried in their own designs, as long as it's not patented.

B* doesn't do that - they make gear that resembles the original. This lets the original maker decide to take them to court and fight it out or settle. This has worked out well for B*. It's fairly obvious they make it look like some other gear because that's what the average musician is familiar with.

Count the 8x10 and 4x10 cabinets on the market. It isn't because this is the best sounding way to build a cabinet - it's because it's familiar design.

All these familiar designs are all public domain by now.
 
The problem in these discussions is that the people arguing the loudest about "ripping off someone's design" are the most technically ignorant...

...What bothers me the most in these discussions, though, is how people will consistently argue against their own interests (and the law) in seeing better and more affordable gear more broadly available.
well aren't you mama's special little angel?!?

well look, like i said, i know they're not doing anything illegal, but at the very least it's shady and IMHO unethical. BVT? Come on! Show some original thought at least! Name the damn thing something else besides changing one stupid letter!
 
Really evil copying is taking something and not making it look anything like the original. Instead hiding it inside some key components of another companies design. Every company takes apart their competitions gear and has a look. They'd be dumb not to. And you can bet when they see something done right or different that they hadn't thought of, it will end up buried in their own designs, as long as it's not patented.

Often even if it is patented.

Take a look at the microprocessor business and "cross-licensing" agreements... and especially how they usually come about.

When I worked at Intel, we generally had AMD CPU's in our labs before they hit the market... and yes, we were taking 'em apart and having a look. I assume the same was true for them.