If tone really is in the fingers...

[JimmyM]

Yes, something like Tuesday's Gone.

But I was speaking about their Core-Tone.
You know, eh eh eh.

I don't know...he's used a lot of different gear over the years and always sounds like James Hetfield. Even used a couple Axe FX units on their last tour and still sounded like himself. And THAT is what "tone is in the fingers" means, not that you need certain types of gear to give yourself an identifiable sound. Joe Satriani could take James' entire rig and still sound like Joe Satriani and vice versa.

 

[UntitledUser]

I don't know...he's used a lot of different gear over the years and always sounds like James Hetfield. Even used a couple Axe FX units on their last tour and still sounded like himself. And THAT is what "tone is in the fingers" means, not that you need certain types of gear to give yourself an identifiable sound. Joe Satriani could take James' entire rig and still sound like Joe Satriani and vice versa.

First thing is that Ride The Lightining has a very very very very different sound from Load. Infact the amp used for Load is very different.
If you listen the two albums you will realize that is not in the album EQ/mix the difference.

Then with a telecaster with vintage single coil pickups and a clean amp, you can't have the distorted sound of james hetfield (of any metallica era).
He puts beefy humbuckers in every guitar and use higain amps of any brand, but still higain amps.
With the AxeFx he surely uses a simulation of a mesaboogie or diezel, with 4x12, and since AxeFX simulations are accurate, it's nearly like using the same amp with a mic in front.

There are "families" of tones and so familes of product.
If you use a product/piece of gear that is "compatible" with a family of tone, you can obtain it.
And they are not infinite number... I think that the essential tones are like 10 in total and a lot of amps and gear usually can dial the 70/80% of them only moving pots...but if it can't do it, your fingers would not help to achieve it.
Or if you can obtain it, sometimes the sound is not excellent, for example using a guitar with an emg81 for Jimi's blues is not the best sound you can have.

At the same time you can't have Geddy Lee YYZ studio/album tone without mixing a distorted bass tone to a clean bass DI, or a preamp that does it directly with a blending function.
If you have only the clean bass DI, that tone would not be in the fingers. (although you can play an interesting cover, with a different tone)

 

[JimmyM]

First thing is that Ride The Lightining has a very very very very different sound from Load. Infact the amp used for Load is very different.
If you listen the two albums you will realize that is not in the album EQ/mix the difference.

Then with a telecaster with vintage single coil pickups and a clean amp, you can't have the distorted sound of james hetfield (of any metallica era).
He puts beefy humbuckers in every guitar and use higain amps of any brand, but still higain amps.
With the AxeFx he surely uses a simulation of a mesaboogie or diezel, with 4x12, and since AxeFX simulations are accurate, it's nearly like using the same amp with a mic in front.

There are "families" of tones and so familes of product.
If you use a product/piece of gear that is "compatible" with a family of tone, you can obtain it.
And they are not infinite number... I think that the essential tones are like 10 in total and a lot of amps and gear usually can dial the 70/80% of them only moving pots...but if it can't do it, your fingers would not help to achieve it.
Or if you can obtain it, sometimes the sound is not excellent, for example using a guitar with an emg81 for Jimi's blues is not the best sound you can have.

At the same time you can't have Geddy Lee YYZ studio/album tone without mixing a distorted bass tone to a clean bass DI, or a preamp that does it directly with a blending function.
If you have only the clean bass DI, that tone would not be in the fingers. (although you can play an interesting cover, with a different tone)

OK, so then if you are correct, then please explain to me why no matter what gear James uses, he still sounds like James Hetfield, and why so many musicians have stories about sitting in on someone else's gear and finding they still sound like themselves, just as Joe Satriani did in that video using that kid's Squier and amp. And why Geddy sounds basically the same no matter whether he uses a Fender, a Ric, or even a Steinberger. I've got a dozen stories like that my own self.

 

[UntitledUser]

OK, so then if you are correct, then please explain to me why no matter what gear James uses, he still sounds like James Hetfield, and why so many musicians have stories about sitting in on someone else's gear and finding they still sound like themselves, just as Joe Satriani did in that video using that kid's Squier and amp. And why Geddy sounds basically the same no matter whether he uses a Fender, a Ric, or even a Steinberger. I've got a dozen stories like that my own self.

Please listen Load (Wizard Heads) and the listen Ride The Lightning (Marshall with a Tubescreamer in front).
The listen St.Anger that is recorded with a downtuned Les Paul instead that his traditional higain pickups in standard tension "E". They all have a very different tone.

If you can't separe "riff/notes" from "tone", that is your big limit, in my opinion.

Also, Satriani sounds "like Satriani" in the video because he is playing and amp that let him to have a "similar tone family". If you plug it into a Fender Twin Reverb without an overdrive he would leave the room because he can't play.

Tone is not "Ability to play a song or not", it is like flavour of a food.
Coke is not Pepsi.

 

[JimmyM]

Please listen Load (Wizard Heads) and the listen Ride The Lightning (Marshall with a Tubescreamer in front).
The listen St.Anger that is recorded with a downtuned Les Paul instead that his traditional higain pickups in standard tension "E". They all have a very different tone.

If you can't separe "riff/notes" from "tone", that is your big limit, in my opinion.

Also, Satriani sounds "like Satriani" in the video because he is playing and amp that let him to have a "similar tone family". If you plug it into a Fender Twin Reverb without an overdrive he would leave the room because he can't play.

Tone is not "Ability to play a song or not", it is like flavour of a food.
Coke is not Pepsi.

You'll learn one day.

 

[chris_b]

. . . . please explain to me why no matter what gear James uses, he still sounds like James Hetfield, and why so many musicians have stories about sitting in on someone else's gear and finding they still sound like themselves

+1

The "sound is in your fingers" is just short-hand, meaning you will sound like you. The gear may alter the sound but it will be insignificant to the other 99%, which will be you. Good players know that what they play is far more important than what they play it on.

Get your licks to the next level and it won't matter what bass you buy. You can even buy a more expensive bass because you can afford it or maybe you're good enough now to hear the subtle difference better gear can bring.

 

[UntitledUser]

You'll learn one day.

When a Fender Twin Reverb (or a cheap clone of it) would have the same sound of a Mesa Boogie Mark IV (or a cheap clone or simulation of it) I will..
Or when, the P neck pickup, would have the same sound of an isolated J bridge pickup also I will...

But for the moment, instead, I will continue to think that, besides the price factor of gear that is sometimes irrilevant, some familes of gear can achieve optimal tone for some applications/songs and other can't.
And it is not a limit in the fingers of the musician.

For example my Jazz bass has not the Mwahhh of a Fretless... not a finger problems. It can't do it.

 

[Element Zero]

This. Thread. Needs. To. Die.

 

[rockscott]

Many years ago I put down the pick and have never looked back. I dont know if tone comes 100% from the fingers, I do know you get way more dynamics, control & warmth from finger playing!

 

[SteveCS]

When a Fender Twin Reverb (or a cheap clone of it) would have the same sound of a Mesa Boogie Mark IV (or a cheap clone or simulation of it) I will..
Or when, the P neck pickup, would have the same sound of an isolated J bridge pickup also I will...

But for the moment, instead, I will continue to think that, besides the price factor of gear that is sometimes irrilevant, some familes of gear can achieve optimal tone for some applications/songs and other can't.
And it is not a limit in the fingers of the musician.

For example my Jazz bass has not the Mwahhh of a Fretless... not a finger problems. It can't do it.

You're observation that different instruments and amp combinations have different 'palettes' is of course true, but the exploitation, exploration and expansion of thoses palettes is a matter for technique. My amp is always set flat and the gain is set such that it just starts to break up if I really dig in. The onboard EQs get a bit of tweaking for different peices, but rarely more than 15° either side of flat - don't ask what that means in dB terms as I neither know nor care. Yet I cover a huge amount of tonal ground from mellow jazz, modern EDM, post-punk, 80's/90's pop, 70's rock and classical music with just techniques. Over the years I've played Fender P, Fender J, Wal, Warwick and EBMM through, amongst others, HH, Marshall, Trace Elliot, Peavey, Ashdown and Genz Benz. Through it all I still sound like me, but the current combination of a fretted and a fretless StingRay 4H and Genz Benz Shuttle gives me the most expansive palette I've ever had because it does not mask what I do with my hands.
Your observation on the fretless is of course also true, but again, beyond a good basic setup, creating mwah (or not) is a matter for the hands, not the instrument or the downstream gear.
YMMV.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I find myself repeating, but i have yet to hear anybody, no matter how talented, make a Hofner sound like a Ric short of some serious signal processing. This whole thread is a bit of navel gazing. Of course tone is in the fingers, and of course the gear used matters. This all seems rather obvious. Newsflash! Scientists discover that a well made PB&J sandwich requires both peanutbutter AND jelly!

 

[Alex J]

My recorded tone isn't the same between my 60s and 70s spaced fender jazz basses, let alone between say, a Stingray and a precision.

Of course, stylistically I sound very similar on both..but saying the player is 99% of the tone is just nonsense.

Marcus Miller doesn't even get the same tone out of his Sire as his 77 jazz, and he has one of the most distinct signature sounds out of anyone.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

...why does most every top notch bassist or guitarist play instruments that cost thousands (sometimes tens of thousands) of dollars? Why aren't they just playing $300 basses and guitars off the rack from Guitar Center? I mean, if tone is really in the fingers, it shouldn't matter right?

Because they want quality gear that is reliable every single time. That's why.

 

[Watchootognbout]

I have two six string basses.

One fretless.
One fretted.

My technique is basically the same on both.
But I get two different tones from each bass.
(No I don't mean the "Mwah"on the fretless.)

The fretless bass has a rounded,middy,punchy tone.
The fretted has a brighter,throatier tone.
They both have duo coil humbuckers.
They both have the same Rotosound rounds on them.

I can adjust each other so that they sound similar.
But not the same.
Why?

 

[Matty Koff]

Y'all aren't getting it. Even with the tonal variety provided by different pieces of equipment, if Geddy Lee and his rig were next to me and mine, and we swapped.. even on my rig he'd sound like Geddy Lee, and even on his rig I'd sound like me. I wouldn't suddenly sound like Geddy Lee just because I had his rig. That's what people mean by the saying.

 

[Texican]

What the hell, I'll elaborate.


There's a misconception that many woods used on boutique instruments are rare and/or costly. As far as endangered species, that doesn't cover the majority of basses. What non-fancy endangered woods are you referring to?

I mentioned fancier woods because I've seen that mindset when referring to boutique builds. Typically by folks who haven't priced woods. The more figure, the higher the price... but what is that price? It's less than most might think. Take Spalted Maple. It's not rare, it can be difficult to work with and it used to get thrown away before figured woods became popular. In that respect it's like raw chicken wings. Used to be among the cheapest part of the chicken, now it's more than legs and thighs. Demand.

I'm stating that what drives the cost up on higher end instruments isn't usually the materials... it's the craftsmanship and everything that goes with that. It is not the items you said that drastically push the price up. Many tend to think that wood, hardware and electronics are the big expenses. Experience and the cost of doing business are the big expenses IME.

Gold hardware typically might cost a few dollars more than chrome or black. A $300 top on a $5,000 bass didn't really push the price up drastically. And so on.

Those are all good points, but when quoting and replying to me directly, please make sure you read and understand what I actually said and reply only to that. Brazilian Rosewood is a great example of where I'm coming from in terms of what I said about wood. Obviously it's all gravy if that inspires you to think of a bunch of other valid points, but that has nothing to do with me or my posts.

Second, some builders (or big companies) may only pay slightly more for "upgraded" or "flashier" aesthetics, but I was referring to the end cost that gets passed on to the customer. A fully loaded new Ford F-150 is going to cost way more than a base model, so Ford is careful about what they allow into the base model... they want to make sure that you end up really waning the loaded model. This is all speculation on my part admittedly, but it's the case in most industries. Your chicken analogy supports this.

 

[Texican]

Y'all aren't getting it. Even with the tonal variety provided by different pieces of equipment, if Geddy Lee and his rig were next to me and mine, and we swapped.. even on my rig he'd sound like Geddy Lee, and even on his rig I'd sound like me. I wouldn't suddenly sound like Geddy Lee just because I had his rig. That's what people mean by the saying.

Agreed, and that's actually already been said multiple times. The problem is that people online would typically rather talk than listen, so they end up replying and arguing with a "point" that wasn't actually even being made.

I'll add that most listeners will probably hear and appreciate the differences between players/technique before they notice that a P Bass was made in Japan and the power amp section is class D.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Right, Geddy would sound like Geddy on your Rig if its similar to your rig. Hand geddy a Hofner, and it will sound like a guy playing really good Geddy covers on a Hofner. Its silly to argue that the gear makes no difference when it so easily manifests itself every time i walk into a guitar store. If i play the same lick on two radically different basses, they DO NOT sound the same. If I pick up two identical Fender Jazz basses, they are likely to sound the same under my fingers, as they would for most players. No amount of finesse in the artful application of PB is going to make it taste like J.

 

[dramatwist]

If you want to spend five figures on a bass, go for it. I have more fun making a piece of dirt sound good.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Ones SOUND and ones TONE are two different things.