If tone really is in the fingers...

[Matty Koff]

Right, Geddy would sound like Geddy on your Rig if its similar to your rig. Hand geddy a Hofner, and it will sound like a guy playing really good Geddy covers on a Hofner. Its silly to argue that the gear makes no difference when it so easily manifests itself every time i walk into a guitar store. If i play the same lick on two radically different basses, they DO NOT sound the same. If I pick up two identical Fender Jazz basses, they are likely to sound the same under my fingers, as they would for most players. No amount of finesse in the artful application of PB is going to make it taste like J.

Geddy playing a hofner would sound like Geddy playing a hofner. The tone may be shaped differently, he may play a little differently if the instrument inspires him, but it's still Geddy. Despite the saying including the word "tone", what is really being said is the musician makes the instrument work for him. A talented musician will most likely sound good whether he's playing a $20 bass or a $10000 bass. Notice I'm not saying sound "the same". I'm saying he'll pick up my gear and still sound good.

 

[JimmyM]

Right, Geddy would sound like Geddy on your Rig if its similar to your rig. Hand geddy a Hofner, and it will sound like a guy playing really good Geddy covers on a Hofner. Its silly to argue that the gear makes no difference when it so easily manifests itself every time i walk into a guitar store. If i play the same lick on two radically different basses, they DO NOT sound the same. If I pick up two identical Fender Jazz basses, they are likely to sound the same under my fingers, as they would for most players. No amount of finesse in the artful application of PB is going to make it taste like J.

No, it will sound exactly like Geddy Lee playing a Hofner. I once saw a vid of Victor Wooten jamming on a borrowed Epiphone Rivoli or Gibson EB-2 with flats (can't remember which), and it sounded exactly like Victor Wooten playing a bass with flats. And if you or I picked up that same bass, it would not sound at all like Victor Wooten.

You all need to stop this completely literal interpretation of "tone is in the fingers." Of course a hollowbody with flats won't sound 100% identical to someone who usually plays a very bright sounding bass with new rounds and a fuzz pedal. That is NOT what the phrase means. What it means is that different players have different styles that are identifiable to them, and that isn't going to go away no matter what rig they use, and no matter how far removed the rig they're sitting in on is from what they usually use. And that's why Satch sitting in on that kid's cheapo rig still sounds like Satch despite it not being a dead nuts match to his own gear.

If you guys continue to insist on a completely literal interpretation, suit yourselves, but that is so not what it means.

 

[Texican]

No, it will sound exactly like Geddy Lee playing a Hofner. I once saw a vid of Victor Wooten jamming on a borrowed Epiphone Rivoli or Gibson EB-2 with flats (can't remember which), and it sounded exactly like Victor Wooten playing a bass with flats. And if you or I picked up that same bass, it would not sound at all like Victor Wooten.

You all need to stop this completely literal interpretation of "tone is in the fingers." Of course a hollowbody with flats won't sound 100% identical to someone who usually plays a very bright sounding bass with new rounds and a fuzz pedal. That is NOT what the phrase means. What it means is that different players have different styles that are identifiable to them, and that isn't going to go away no matter what rig they use, and no matter how far removed the rig they're sitting in on is from what they usually use. And that's why Satch sitting in on that kid's cheapo rig still sounds like Satch despite it not being a dead nuts match to his own gear.

If you guys continue to insist on a completely literal interpretation, suit yourselves, but that is so not what it means.

"Yeah, but... no, but... Geddy Lee will sound different on a flute! ...so you're saying a jazz bass sounds exactly like flute?!"

 

[SLO Surfer]

"You can't have your cake and eat it" makes no sense. You can't eat cake unless you have one to eat!!!

 

[Texican]

"You can't have your cake and eat it" makes no sense. You can't eat cake unless you have one to eat!!!

Well once you eat the cake, you don't have $h1+ left... wait, $h!+s all you have left. Just food for thought and all that $h!+

 

[SLO Surfer]

Well once you eat the cake, you don't have $h1+ left... wait, $h!+s all you have left. Just food for thought and all that $h!+

Right! So basically when it comes down to it, the saying really means, "cake is $h1+"

Thanks for helping clear that up for me!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Those are all good points, but when quoting and replying to me directly, please make sure you read and understand what I actually said and reply only to that. Brazilian Rosewood is a great example of where I'm coming from in terms of what I said about wood. Obviously it's all gravy if that inspires you to think of a bunch of other valid points, but that has nothing to do with me or my posts.

Second, some builders (or big companies) may only pay slightly more for "upgraded" or "flashier" aesthetics, but I was referring to the end cost that gets passed on to the customer. A fully loaded new Ford F-150 is going to cost way more than a base model, so Ford is careful about what they allow into the base model... they want to make sure that you end up really waning the loaded model. This is all speculation on my part admittedly, but it's the case in most industries. Your chicken analogy supports this.

This isn't speculation on my part... I worked in the industry. There aren't that many truly rare woods being used. How much do you really think builders charge for gold hardware? And so on. I guess it depends on what your idea of "drastic" is.

 

[Pilgrim]

...why does most every top notch bassist or guitarist play instruments that cost thousands (sometimes tens of thousands) of dollars? Why aren't they just playing $300 basses and guitars off the rack from Guitar Center? I mean, if tone is really in the fingers, it shouldn't matter right?

When a beginner plays them, those top end instruments sound like a $50 60's Japanese cheapie.

It ain't just the bass.

I rest my case.

 

[MtManiac]

Because better gear sounds and plays better.
This "finger" thing is a poorly written axiom that needs to be revised or dumped. On its face it is an absurd notion. Your fingers don't create "tone." What the saying is trying to express is if you don't know how to play, the best gear in the world won't make you sound good.
And even that isn't 100% true. If your bass is so poorly designed or ill suited to your body (ergonomics) then it will actually impede your ability to play.

I agree with everything you said except that your fingers *do* create tone, but the question is "how do I use my fingers (or pick) to create good tone?"

 

[SteveCS]

... Your fingers don't create "tone." What the saying is trying to express is if you don't know how to play, the best gear in the world won't make you sound good.
...

Your interpretation is correct, but at odds with your conclusion. So if a good instrument can't make a bad player sound good, how come a good player can make lesser instruments sound good. What it actually means is that if you know how to play you can use your fingers to control all aspects of the note you play within the capabilities of the instrument in hand. A good hand will get the best out of any instrument. A higher grade instrument will have a wider palette of capabilities, but only a good hand will be able to access them. The whole thing needs to be experienced first hand before it can be understood, at which point a whole new journey of learning begins. Tone chasing happens in the woodshed, not at the music store.

 

[MtManiac]

Tone chasing happens in the woodshed, not at the music store.

YES! 100%!

it really means a good player will spend time trying to create musical sounds, as differentiated from someone who spends time trying to put the right fingers on the right frets and strike the right string at the right time.

The two points of view are representative of different levels of proficiency - either with the song, or with the instrument.

 

[Turlu]

I currently have a Fender CS Precision relic 1951, a MusicMan Stingray Special 4H, a Rickenbacker 2017 4003S jetglo and I sound different with each of them, using the same strings, same amp, same setup, and same technique, period.

 

[SteveCS]

I currently have a Fender CS Precision relic 1951, a MusicMan Stingray Special 4H, a Rickenbacker 2017 4003S jetglo and I sound different with each of them, using the same strings, same amp, same setup, and same technique, period.

Yes, that will be one reference point on the tonal spectrum of each instrument. Exploring the full spectra will need variations in technique. The more adept and less random your hands the more the full spectrum becomes available. That's what tone is in the hands is all about.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

A High school friend had a violin teacher who was in the Boston Philharmonic, he had a Guarneri (I'm probably butchering the name) violin "residency", where the violin passes hands every few years, and it was his turn to play it. By most accounts, the Guarneri's are on par with the more famous Stradivarius, but I didn't know either from a hole in the wall at the time. It just looked like an old " road worn" violin. My friend had a decent quality student violin, expensive for her, but nothing special. I was hanging out in her living room while she finished the lesson, and hearing the sound of the two instruments compared was a revelation. The teacher didn't let her play the Guarneri (insurance issues, no Doubt) but he played the same figures on both violins to demonstrate, and the difference in tone and projection was astonishing. With exactly the same fingers playing the same notes, one sounded like what is was, a serviceable instrument, the other was like a human voice weeping, I can't think how else to describe it. The best violinist in the world was never going to drag that tone out of a student violin. Conversely, my friend probably couldn't have gotten that tone out of the Guarneri either without the additional years of training, but I bet she would have sounded a hell of a lot better. The fingers matter. The instrument matters. It isn't one or the other, it's both.

 

[Frisk Cat]

This. Thread. Needs. To. Die.

I agree... usually when I post anything to any forum, for some reason, it dies, I curse things I guess, lol.
However, This is my answer to the question..

if tone really is in the fingers, then, example, with a six string guitar, if I picked up say, Ritchie Blackmores' guitar, with his set up and I up stroked an Em chord, it would sound exactly like he does,and to add further, when Blackmore plays slide, his tone remains the same as he would using his fingers on the fret board in a solo or riff. IOW, tone comes from playing style and gear set up, and not some magical force within the skin of a persons fingers.
Just my thought.

 

[68Goldfish]

I didn't read the whole thread.
Tone is in the fingers...
It's not so much wether Geddy would still sound like Geddy if he was playing on a hoffner.
It's more like would you sound like Geddy if you picked up his bass and played through his amp. Obviously completely different basses are going to sound different, even with the same guy playing them. Alice in chains wouldn't have sounded the same if Mike recorded it with a Rickenbacker instead of a Spector no matter how much of his tone is in his fingers. But I doubt that joe blow could have set in on the recordings using Mikes gear and made it sound the same.

 

[Texican]

This isn't speculation on my part... I worked in the industry. There aren't that many truly rare woods being used. How much do you really think builders charge for gold hardware? And so on. I guess it depends on what your idea of "drastic" is.

Dude... please learn to read. If other people are misguided about whether a wood is rare or endangered, take it up with them. I specifically pointed out over and over again that I am ONLY REFERRING to wood that actually costs more because of endangered status, rarity, and cost of acquisition/tooling (never mind the fact that cost to the consumer can also increase based on market demand alone).

I pointed out that if a wood is ACTUALLY legaly endangered, its ENDANGERED... which seems obvious and that's why I said I didn't need to elaborate. You quoted me by saying "what the hell, I'll elaborate! Sometimes people think woods are endangered when they aren't blah blah blah...". Sorry bud, but I can't think of a better example of someone missing the point. I keep telling you that you make good points, you're just directing them at the wrong guy. I'm sure gold hardware doesn't cost much more per piece. But I remember all these options in the old Carvin catalogues where you started paying more and more for aesthetic "upgrades", and the OP was talking about tone-per-dollar-spent. I commented that sometimes your money goes toward looks rather than sound. Is that not true? Now I'm sorry that you were so ruffled by the hyperbole of the word "drastic", but I think a reasonable person would get my point. I'm hoping that you don't reply with: "not all Wood is endangered" or some other retort to a point I never made, yet again. You seem like an otherwise good poster and I don't want you to be the first person to end up on my ignore list.

 

[socialleper]

Your interpretation is correct, but at odds with your conclusion. So if a good instrument can't make a bad player sound good, how come a good player can make lesser instruments sound good. What it actually means is that if you know how to play you can use your fingers to control all aspects of the note you play within the capabilities of the instrument in hand. A good hand will get the best out of any instrument. A higher grade instrument will have a wider palette of capabilities, but only a good hand will be able to access them. The whole thing needs to be experienced first hand before it can be understood, at which point a whole new journey of learning begins. Tone chasing happens in the woodshed, not at the music store.

A bad instrument can make a good player sound bad. The listener can will forgive the tone more because of the playing, but a bad sounding bass doesn't magically change because of who is playing it.

 

[socialleper]

I agree with everything you said except that your fingers *do* create tone, but the question is "how do I use my fingers (or pick) to create good tone?"

Tone is created by the bass itself. Your fingers play the notes, and create the timbre of those notes.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Dude... please learn to read. If other people are misguided about whether a wood is rare or endangered, take it up with them. I specifically pointed out over and over again that I am ONLY REFERRING to wood that actually costs more because of endangered status, rarity, and cost of acquisition/tooling (never mind the fact that cost to the consumer can also increase based on market demand alone).

I pointed out that if a wood is ACTUALLY legaly endangered, its ENDANGERED... which seems obvious and that's why I said I didn't need to elaborate. You quoted me by saying "what the hell, I'll elaborate! Sometimes people think woods are endangered when they aren't blah blah blah...". Sorry bud, but I can't think of a better example of someone missing the point. I keep telling you that you make good points, you're just directing them at the wrong guy. I'm sure gold hardware doesn't cost much more per piece. But I remember all these options in the old Carvin catalogues where you started paying more and more for aesthetic "upgrades", and the OP was talking about tone-per-dollar-spent. I commented that sometimes your money goes toward looks rather than sound. Is that not true? Now I'm sorry that you were so ruffled by the hyperbole of the word "drastic", but I think a reasonable person would get my point. I'm hoping that you don't reply with: "not all Wood is endangered" or some other retort to a point I never made, yet again. You seem like an otherwise good poster and I don't want you to be the first person to end up on my ignore list.

You pointed out that gold hardware pushes the price up. And you keep ignoring that. Funny.

I wasn't ruffled in the least, I disagree with what you wrote and said why without admonishing you. Since you can't seem to handle that, ignore may be your best option. I'll still be here.