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I'll Never Play for Free Again
- Thread starter tapehead
- Start date
There have been several comments in this thread stating that people/bands who want to play for free should do so in backyards, at friend's birthday parties etc. and stay out of the clubs. Well to those people taking that stance I have a suggestion. It's my opinion that (gotta follow rules... oh yea...) if you don't like what unscrupulous bar owners are doing then start your own club/bar/music-venue where you can play what you want for whatever price you think you deserve. You'll make a mint selling booze and you get to show just how valuable your years of hard work and dedication to your craft is.
But then I guess it's easier to point fingers and try having others shoulder the blame when you're not getting paid the amount of money you think you deserve.
Honestly, I agree with you. I may not say start your own club, but I've been constantly saying that if your life depends on gigs, then act like it. Invest your time and talents to deliver the best band and music. The kind of thing that makes people want to spend money in the venue you're playing in. Some hobbyists have taken some of my comments about separating the pro's from the hobbyists as being anti-hobbyist and I'm not, but let's be realistic a band of pro musicians, with a good stage show and good music will put more butts in the seats.
I remember when I was younger playing in metal bands, we usually drew good crowds except when we were competing with national acts. Of course the crowds went to see those bands and our draw suffered. I never cursed those bands though, I usually cursed the guy who booked the gig because I wanted to go to the other show too. It's just the way it is, if you want to be one of those bands, work harder and deliver a better show.
But you do agree with me that he was certifiably insane, right?
I know. I'm just quoting from the film because I liked it.
I guess my input on this comes from a few angles.
From a free market perspective, choosing a "career" that a lot of people are willing to do for free isn't that smart a choice. Someone once used the analogy of skateboarding, and I think it applies pretty well. Someone like Tony Hawk didn't start skating to make a career of it, but he was fortunate that he could. If he hadn't become rich and famous, would he have any right to go around to skate parks admonishing other skaters for showing off their skills for free? Of course not! But, because of the level of success he has achieved, he isn't threatened by what else is out there.The same applies to musicians. If you're at a level where you're losing gigs to bands that charge nothing, maybe you're in the wrong line of work.
You may have put hours and hours into developing your skills, spent money on professional gear, and offer a much better product than the free alternative. None of these things necessarily matter to the bars that are hiring you or the patrons of those bars. To many of them, a cover band is a cover band. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter, perception is reality. At the end of the day, if a comparable product is available for free you have nothing to sell. What makes you worth paying for? You don't hear good restaurants complaining about the competition from the soup kitchen.
That said, all musicians should be aware that every bar/club owner will try to take advantage of them. In the current climate of entertainment options local bands rate pretty low, so a lot of times the band needs the club more than the club needs them. If you're band is so good that you think you can demand more, you have to be prepared to turn down gigs from clubs who aren't willing to pay. Then you get into basic economics, "Do I play 5 times a month for $250 a night or once for $1,000?".
And my final point, and this applies to a lot more than just this conversation, but there is no place where it is written that you have a right to make a living doing whatever you choose. You have a right to do as you choose, and you have a right to make a living, but for most people the two paths are not the same. Anyone who chooses a "passion industry" as their chosen profession should know full well going into it that the odds of real success (being able to support yourself entirely off your passion) are pretty slim. Those are the facts. Further, playing gigs is not a full time job unless you're touring. How many of the "professionals" complaining in this thread spend 40 hours/week gigging/rehearsing? I'm not talking about guys who supplement gig income by teaching or doing repair work or studio work, but of the guys who think they should be able to support themselves (and some with families) just on gigs, when was your last 40 hour week?
From a free market perspective, choosing a "career" that a lot of people are willing to do for free isn't that smart a choice. Someone once used the analogy of skateboarding, and I think it applies pretty well. Someone like Tony Hawk didn't start skating to make a career of it, but he was fortunate that he could. If he hadn't become rich and famous, would he have any right to go around to skate parks admonishing other skaters for showing off their skills for free? Of course not! But, because of the level of success he has achieved, he isn't threatened by what else is out there.The same applies to musicians. If you're at a level where you're losing gigs to bands that charge nothing, maybe you're in the wrong line of work.
You may have put hours and hours into developing your skills, spent money on professional gear, and offer a much better product than the free alternative. None of these things necessarily matter to the bars that are hiring you or the patrons of those bars. To many of them, a cover band is a cover band. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter, perception is reality. At the end of the day, if a comparable product is available for free you have nothing to sell. What makes you worth paying for? You don't hear good restaurants complaining about the competition from the soup kitchen.
That said, all musicians should be aware that every bar/club owner will try to take advantage of them. In the current climate of entertainment options local bands rate pretty low, so a lot of times the band needs the club more than the club needs them. If you're band is so good that you think you can demand more, you have to be prepared to turn down gigs from clubs who aren't willing to pay. Then you get into basic economics, "Do I play 5 times a month for $250 a night or once for $1,000?".
And my final point, and this applies to a lot more than just this conversation, but there is no place where it is written that you have a right to make a living doing whatever you choose. You have a right to do as you choose, and you have a right to make a living, but for most people the two paths are not the same. Anyone who chooses a "passion industry" as their chosen profession should know full well going into it that the odds of real success (being able to support yourself entirely off your passion) are pretty slim. Those are the facts. Further, playing gigs is not a full time job unless you're touring. How many of the "professionals" complaining in this thread spend 40 hours/week gigging/rehearsing? I'm not talking about guys who supplement gig income by teaching or doing repair work or studio work, but of the guys who think they should be able to support themselves (and some with families) just on gigs, when was your last 40 hour week?
Well, I have a couple of perspectives on this. First, I am one of those 50 somethings that have been playing since before a lot of you guys were born. However, the band I'm in plays originals and nothing BUT originals. We also tour. Quite extensively. And, I might add, we make pretty decent money.
Second, When I began playing "way back when", it was not at all uncommon to make 20-30 dollars a night (if you were lucky). Fast forward to today - I see bands of young guys now making the same 20-30 dollars a night that I enjoyed 35 years ago! What gives?
Now, the big thing (at least around here) are these "open Mic" nights at several of the local watering holes. Again, I don't get it. I mean, I fully understand that a local group just starting up would like as much exposure as possible, but these guys are rarely ever hired from one of these deals, Hell, in most cases, the band can't even get a free drink, yet they show up week after week for the opportunity to play 2 or 3 songs...I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. The patrons who frequent these places are spending money - the dude who owns said place is making money. Everyone EXCEPT the bands are making money.
I dunno, it's my long-held belief that if you wish to be treated like a professional - act like one.
Your band is just as viable as any other out there. Or, As one hooker used to tell another - quit giving it away! We're trying to make a living here!!! Guess it would apply to us, as well!!
Second, When I began playing "way back when", it was not at all uncommon to make 20-30 dollars a night (if you were lucky). Fast forward to today - I see bands of young guys now making the same 20-30 dollars a night that I enjoyed 35 years ago! What gives?
Now, the big thing (at least around here) are these "open Mic" nights at several of the local watering holes. Again, I don't get it. I mean, I fully understand that a local group just starting up would like as much exposure as possible, but these guys are rarely ever hired from one of these deals, Hell, in most cases, the band can't even get a free drink, yet they show up week after week for the opportunity to play 2 or 3 songs...I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. The patrons who frequent these places are spending money - the dude who owns said place is making money. Everyone EXCEPT the bands are making money.
I dunno, it's my long-held belief that if you wish to be treated like a professional - act like one.
Your band is just as viable as any other out there. Or, As one hooker used to tell another - quit giving it away! We're trying to make a living here!!! Guess it would apply to us, as well!!
. . . Great take on that whole situation Buster Brown! I'll take your perspective long before some of the others I read on several of the earlier pages.. There is wisdom in this guy's words folks.. so pay attention and start acting accordingly.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
Point one... Not all of us strictly play in cover bands and not all of us strictly play in original bands. Most of us 'professionals' play in BOTH types of bands, and it shouldn't matter if you're an original or cover band. If you get a gig in a club that typically pays 'X' amount for a band, you should at least get 'X' if they liked you enough to book you. If you are established and prove you have a draw, they should be HAPPY to pay you more than 'X'. Covers or originals demand the same attention and WORK in order to put on a professional show.
I'm not trying to sound like a heel, but your post seems to assume on some level that unless you're putting in 40 hours per week like clockwork on the road you are not considered a 'professional'. When was the last time any musician looked at their calendar and said 'you know, I must clock every hour I do something related to my music and make sure it adds up to 40 hours per week so I can safely call myself a 'professional''? Most people who play music and who do it on a professional level do not approach it as a time-card-punching 'job', though they are indeed... PROFESSIONALS! I know plenty of musicians who do not gig or rehearse 40 hours per week and do quite well with just their musical pursuits as their main source of income. I'm sensing a desire to make a split between musicians who only play or rehearse and musicians who play, rehearse, teach, repair, compose, or otherwise engage in musically-related trades outside of gigging as well in order to advance their 'profitability'. It all relates back to making a living being involved in MUSIC and conducting business in a professional manner. There's nothing wrong with that. You are correct that any musician who is not touring is most likely not doing something musically-related for the traditional 40-hour-per-week stereotypical work week, but does that diminish what they bring to the table as a 'professional'? As I've said before, I can pick up a hammer and put some wood pieces together with nails, then offer to build your house... but would you want me to? No, you'll hire a professional to do it because you expect quality.
Finally... I agree with you that if you are playing music on a certain level, bands who play for free should not be a concern for you. However, most of the professionals or even semi-pros that I know who may be on the road here and there usually end up gigging back in their 'home market' in the off-time because they have to make money off the road as well. Most of them I know do not gig in places that do not pay fairly, or who routinely undercut. In my experience, as someone who is a member of several projects that are respected and who receive pretty fair pay for gigs in our market, the problems arise when the venues that have paid you fairly in the past begin to offer lower pay for the same gigs, or begin booking other bands that are known to be less experienced or professional simply because they will charge less. The venues in question want to continue booking us, acknowledge the draw we bring to their venue, enjoy what we do, and enjoy working with us... so why don't they pay more when they know we bring a quality product? We have stopped playing in certain venues because of this, and they have asked us why we won't rebook. When we explain to them the disparity in pay, they have no quality explanation as to why they can't pay us, a quality, established band, more for our efforts. If you worked at a job for years and did excellent work, yet received no raise or other compensation for your efforts, would you stay with the job? Probably not. Shoot high, negotiate, leave happy. Otherwise, don't play the gig.
But there is a very important split between those two career choices, especially as it relates to this topic. People who have been saying they are getting undercut by other bands are assuming that the band undercutting them is unprofessional. Last time I checked, being able to offer a competitive product at a lower price was one of the foundations of good business. If Band A only plays gigs and Band B plays gigs, does session work and teaches lessons, why should Band B be bound by some code to honor Band A's perception as to what fair compensation is?
My boss plays in a mens' basketball league. He doesn't get paid to play, but the league draws some pretty good players (a few retired NBA guys) and decent size crowds show up to watch the games. The rec center that runs the league doesn't charge admission, but they make decent money off of concessions. Should the Lakers and Clippers be worried about this competition? Of course not, because the NBA is a superior product that fans will pay more to see. If you have a better product, the market will dictate that it is worth more. If a bar owner sees the same profit hiring a free or very cheap band, why should they pay higher rates? This basic principal is accepted and understood in every other business, why should music be any different?
The problem is that people are going to the same venues in many cases and offering to play for free. Either that or the venues they are playing for free at won't pay because they can get someone to play for free. Even if that isn't the case, in the back of every venues mind is the fact that there is someone out there willing to play for free. That drives down the pay overall regardless of all other factors.
I think that there is actually a law against intentionally operating a business at a net loss to undercut your competition. It is very hard to prove so sometimes companies get away with it. It would seem asinine to apply that law to bands right? The fact that it seems asinine to apply it to them is the point. We've accustomed people to thinking of people playing as not being a business.
This is very similar to people trying to unionize back in the day IMHO. Many people didn't see the advantages despite the fact that they were there so they didn't want to go along with the unions.
PS: I'm not a lawyer so my understanding of any legal thingamadohickey herein referenced is undoubtably flawed, inaccurate and grossly misstated.
Almost all bar owners are exclusively concerned with getting as many drinking customers into their bar for as little money as possible.
Lets use a bar which one of my bands plays at as an example. They are a little "dive bar" in a beach community. Durring the winter they do not bring in a lot of business, by hiring my band for $200 to play an hour and fifteen minutes (50% covers, 50% originals) and a band with a better draw to play for 2 hours at $350 (100% covers) they spend 550 to bring in about 85 people. if they now had to pay 1000 for that same amount of people their profits would be reduced. They have already started shutting down Monday-Wednesday and now have live music only on Friday and Saturday nights.
This all changes during the Summer when they have live music 4 nights a week and other forms of entertainment 3 nights. (Karaoke and Wet T-shirt contests etc...)
I do not advocate playing for free, I think it is horrible for music as an industry but I am not against playing for a little cash even if it is just door.
Lets use a bar which one of my bands plays at as an example. They are a little "dive bar" in a beach community. Durring the winter they do not bring in a lot of business, by hiring my band for $200 to play an hour and fifteen minutes (50% covers, 50% originals) and a band with a better draw to play for 2 hours at $350 (100% covers) they spend 550 to bring in about 85 people. if they now had to pay 1000 for that same amount of people their profits would be reduced. They have already started shutting down Monday-Wednesday and now have live music only on Friday and Saturday nights.
This all changes during the Summer when they have live music 4 nights a week and other forms of entertainment 3 nights. (Karaoke and Wet T-shirt contests etc...)
I do not advocate playing for free, I think it is horrible for music as an industry but I am not against playing for a little cash even if it is just door.
A couple points-
1. You get what you pay for. If there is a discernable difference between a free band and an expensive one, the club has the right to make that calculated decision to buy an inferior product in an effort to save money. If there is no difference in the quality of the bands, then playing club/bar gigs should be something people do for fun, not money.
2. The goal of a band that walks into a club and offers to play for free is not necessarily to undercut the competition. They could be a brand new band looking for their first gig, they could be trying to promote themselves (there is certainly no law against giving your product away for free as a form of promotion), they might just enjoy playing and not need the money. These are the conditions of the market.
3. Unions suck. Living in L.A., I see the other side of entertainment unions. Once they've sufficiently protected their members from exploitation by their employers, they turn their focus to protecting their members from competition from non-union artists. Imagine a town where all the bars and clubs would only hire union bands, and to protect their cushy weekend gigs the union decides its time to close membership. Similar things happen in the movie biz all the time.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
To respond to your first point... Any legitimate business person realizes there are expenses involved in production/promotion of their product or service. A carpenter needs a hammer, a delivery person needs a truck, a chef needs a stove. These things require monetary investment, either on a one-time basis or as a continual investment, into their business. They realize they need income in order to make their business survive and must ask for fair compensation. I operate my personal music affairs as a legitimate business... I pay my taxes, I log my miles, I track my expenses. I do it properly. Music, though wrongfully seen as 'just a hobby' or 'not a real job' by many, doesn't seem to register on the radar as something that requires monetary investment, and subsequently, INCOME, in order to survive and prosper. If a business operates at a loss just to generate business and attract attention, it will soon fail. It must show it's capable of generating income and generating a quality product in order to survive and build a reputation for repeat business. Musicians need supplies in order to continue their pursuits, we have to pay for gas to get to gigs, we have to feed ourselves, we have to shelter ourselves on out of town gigs. Factor all those in and... well... you HAVE TO MAKE A DECENT WAGE in order to continue your musical pursuits! In most trades, taking into account individual economic conditions, there is a 'fair market value' for services or goods. If one values their work and promotes their skills on a professional level, they should accept those conditions and fees as such and respect that in their trade. I have refused to play certain gigs with some of the projects I'm involved with because the pay was unfair or non-existent. Again, those who view other fields as being more legitimate 'real jobs' would never pursue a career in them and think of asking for lesser compensation than someone else doing the same job. I assume a band who knowingly comes in and offers to play for less money or for FREE *is* unprofessional because they don't realize the repercussions it has for their fellow musicians or for THEMSELVES in future musical pursuits. Whether they CARE or not is their own issue to deal with. I'm going to ruffle some feathers here, but if you are a weekend-warrior with a cushy day gig who gets out and plays gigs in places where professional, full-time bands play 'just to do it', you obviously do not have respect for those people who ARE playing professionally and trying to feed themselves and their families. For these musicians, these gigs ARE their job, and you are taking their job away if even for one evening. I realize it's not a weekly thing where this happens... it may be one or two gigs here and there where the professional band gets the boot for the evening. BUT, it's sort of like someone outsourcing your cushy job here in the US to someone overseas who will do the work for far less... you'd feel pretty slighted if you worked your whole life to get that job and then it was swiped out from under you. If you want to play a free gig where a band normally would get paid, then tell the venue owner to take the money they WOULD pay, and give it to the next pro band that is playing there the next nite. How's THAT for paying it forward AND respecting your fellow WORKING musicians?
As someone else mentioned further back, there will always be times even in PROFESSIONAL situations where we play for just a little less to 'break in' to a venue or a scene, but you always demand to be paid at least modestly. My rule is one gig only at a reduced pay scale at a new venue... after that, regular pay or no gig.
As for the last point... if the bar/venue owner doesn't see fit to pay a well-established band with a professional reputation, more than some upstart band, then the professional band should refuse to gig there and find work elsewhere in a venue that does respect what they're doing. I don't think anyone's refuting that. Again, demand respectful compensation or don't play the gig.
Offtopic sidebar (hey I'm sticking with the legal mumbojumbo here):
Unions are necessary checkson workers getting exploited. Unfortunately we need checks on the unions too. My stint in the teamsters union left me pretty nonplussed with them. I personally think that right to work laws allowing people who think that the union doesn't do anything for them to leave might be a good idea.
Wrong. Serious gigging bands have something that cannot be duplicated by printing up a few pamphlets and posting a few pictures on MySpace.interwebz
It's the reputation that comes with paying your dues in the area. You play quality gigs and sell yourself month after month, year after year, until there is a critical mass of support for your band. My band can book gigs when we want to because there are lots of clubs in the area that know when we play in their joint, we bring in patrons who buy more than enough booze to cover our fee.
Now I admit this may not be possible in every market, but here in the Chicagoland area, you get paid according to how how much you put into it and how good your reputation is.
very long and interesting thread..as are all these threads about getting paid to play. Some good points being made, but the thing that isn't being discussed is original music vs cover bands. Most of the comments I assume are being made about cover bands competing in small bars or clubs.
The goal for every original band should be building a local fan base, then expand that base regionally. Keep this up until you are getting PRE-SALE ticket purchases. THIS IS YOUR MISSION!
The bars and clubs will pay what they have to, nothing more.
Real venues and promoters will look at your ticket sales and decide to take a chance based on that, not your hard working rep or anything else. Poll Star, find out what it is and get your band in the loop. It's what the promoters use to see if you are worth anything at all.
the music/band business is different then other business because of pre sale tickets based on loyal following. I don't see that in plumbing, carpentry or the other examples being made here comparing this to other day jobs.
pre sale tickets...it should be the goal, merch, CD sales. name recognition.
GO GET EM!
The goal for every original band should be building a local fan base, then expand that base regionally. Keep this up until you are getting PRE-SALE ticket purchases. THIS IS YOUR MISSION!
The bars and clubs will pay what they have to, nothing more.
Real venues and promoters will look at your ticket sales and decide to take a chance based on that, not your hard working rep or anything else. Poll Star, find out what it is and get your band in the loop. It's what the promoters use to see if you are worth anything at all.
the music/band business is different then other business because of pre sale tickets based on loyal following. I don't see that in plumbing, carpentry or the other examples being made here comparing this to other day jobs.
pre sale tickets...it should be the goal, merch, CD sales. name recognition.
GO GET EM!
Precisely! Which is why it's such a challenge for 'hobbyist 50-ish covers bands doing Eagles..' to get paid anything at all..rising affluence and copious leisure time has created a whole class of middle aged former garage band stars who have the time, the money (and occasionally talent) to put on a show for flea, er, free. I'm one of a zillion of these guys who never traded the bass for a set of white shoes and golf clubs. (See Dave's comments below on economics as well.) Note that I mentioned the union at one point, which invited a storm of "oh NO, not that!"
Glad this thread hasn't gotten to the point where it needed to be closed. play nice kids............rule #1 and all........
Lots of good points all around. It's nice to see polemics that are so well thought out.
I'm not a huge fan of unions either, and i don't think that would help in this situation. However, i don't see anything wrong with bands in a local area trading info on which clubs to avoid due to shady practices.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, speaking of unions, i wonder what would happen if a bunch of cats showed up in nashville and started doing sessions for free?
wouldn't be pretty.
+1 on the cover band vs original band thing. Original bands, especially those that are trying to "make it" are a whole different animal in terms of pay scale during their struggle to the top. Of course, that's because in most cases the patrons aren't going to be as entertained by music that they don't recognize unless it's exceptionally good, and even then they have to dig the genre.
A cover band OTOH, is simply an independent contractor whose sole duty is to get more patrons into the establishment, or to keep the ones allready there entertained so they stay (spending money in either case). Thats what has inherent $$ value, NOT the music. If you deliver, then you should get paid accordingly. - IMHO.
Lots of good points all around. It's nice to see polemics that are so well thought out.
I'm not a huge fan of unions either, and i don't think that would help in this situation. However, i don't see anything wrong with bands in a local area trading info on which clubs to avoid due to shady practices.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, speaking of unions, i wonder what would happen if a bunch of cats showed up in nashville and started doing sessions for free?
wouldn't be pretty.
+1 on the cover band vs original band thing. Original bands, especially those that are trying to "make it" are a whole different animal in terms of pay scale during their struggle to the top. Of course, that's because in most cases the patrons aren't going to be as entertained by music that they don't recognize unless it's exceptionally good, and even then they have to dig the genre.
A cover band OTOH, is simply an independent contractor whose sole duty is to get more patrons into the establishment, or to keep the ones allready there entertained so they stay (spending money in either case). Thats what has inherent $$ value, NOT the music. If you deliver, then you should get paid accordingly. - IMHO.
I don't think anyone here was laying the blame at the feet of actual musicians, but at the feet of people who pretend to be musicians for a lot less money than a musician would demand.
And neither should anyone else. He probably doesn't even play an instrument, just trolling around here for fun (a hobby).
I've had the same happen to me...I signed up for a church gig only to be dropped and then messed around when it all went wrong.
Baby Boomers are now responsible for the death of live music and the collapse of social security
