I'm really beginning to dislike my guitarist...

[Waffles and Scotch]

OK - just to be devil's advocate, I have a point that relates to the original post.

Just because the guitar player was guilty of being unprofessional too doesn't necessarily mean you weren't or what he was saying about professionalism was wrong.

I have never not known what time to be at a gig because whenever I have a gig I always make sure I have that information well in advance. If the BL doesn't call with it in a timely fashion, I call him, email him, txt him and get that info. I've never been on getting ready to make dinner around 8 on a gig night NOT knowing what time I was expected at the gig. I consider that to be my responsibility as a professional. Yes, I expect the BL to HAVE that info - and it's great when he gives it out right away - but if it's not forthcoming, I feel it's my obligation to get it.

All that said - I think your guitar player sounds like a pain in the butt and I understand why you are so upset.

I'll give this post a big +1!

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Point taken. It was somewhat assumed on my part that the gig wouldn't start til 11pm as that has been our normal starting time for most gigs. I can admit to that. Still, if he's the one booking the gig then he should of informed me that our setup time was earlier...

OK - just to be devil's advocate, I have a point that relates to the original post.

Just because the guitar player was guilty of being unprofessional too doesn't necessarily mean you weren't or what he was saying about professionalism was wrong.

I have never not known what time to be at a gig because whenever I have a gig I always make sure I have that information well in advance. If the BL doesn't call with it in a timely fashion, I call him, email him, txt him and get that info. I've never been on getting ready to make dinner around 8 on a gig night NOT knowing what time I was expected at the gig. I consider that to be my responsibility as a professional. Yes, I expect the BL to HAVE that info - and it's great when he gives it out right away - but if it's not forthcoming, I feel it's my obligation to get it.

All that said - I think your guitar player sounds like a pain in the butt and I understand why you are so upset.

Yep. As I said, I should of asked about it myself but I was somewhat on autopilot considering our normal start times, and considering he acted as if this gig was nothing out of the norm. TBH, I think he knew I would of assumed this and this is just his way to build up a case against me.

 

[tZer]

Yep. As I said, I should of asked about it myself but I was somewhat on autopilot considering our normal start times, and considering he acted as if this gig was nothing out of the norm.

Totally understandable - and it should only happen once -right?

It's just funny to me sometimes how when stupid things happen and people then pile acting holier than thou on top - the real problem, that's usually so easily fixed and forgotten, becomes the reason the band splits up.

The key to being in a successful, drama-free band is to be in one where everyone takes personal responsibility for themselves first - then you get a bonus when they also want to help make life easier on everyone else by pitching in and doing stuff. They make life easy because they'll ask you what they need to know instead of blame you for not telling them.

As a player in a gigging band - and especially in this day an age of "there's no way to NOT to know what everyone one earth is doing at any given time whether you want do or not", the only excuse to NOT know what time you go on is if you either don't care or it's a national secret and the rest of the world (venue included) is withholding it from you.

If that's the case, you've got bigger problems than your guitar player.

 

[scottfeldstein]

I'm not a big fan of "hugging it out" with the guy or having a "clear the air" meeting with him and the other members. The issue doesn't have anything to do with who is being irresponsible and who isn't, nor does it have to do with setup times, nor does it have to do with anything except the fact that the guy treated you like dirt for no reason. Creative use of Google Calendar won't play a role in solving it. Clear expectations or better communication won't change an a-hole into an easygoing, fun-to-be-around guy. I'd be selecting one of these options:

a) tell him you won't tolerate his behavior going forward or you'll kick him out of the band

b) tell him you won't tolerate his behavior going forward or you'll quit the band

c) just kick him out

d) just quit

 

[tZer]

I was in a band with a total pain in the butt BL who did frequently find things to bitch and moan about - and sometimes it was even me he was bitching at on the very odd occasion when I might actually have arrived a minute or two later than usual - but that's because he was a butthead - not a good leader or more pro than I.

What I learned was there is NOTHING you can tell them, say to them, write to them, band meeting to them, that's going to make them change. The only thing I could to was remove all fodder from the table that he could possibly bitch at me about - by always knowing my songs, where the gig was, what time to be there - then being there on time, ready to do my job consistently.

I knew, and he did too, that there was nothing he could say to me about my professionalism because I didn't let there be anything about my professionalism for him to have an honest gripe about. As a matter of fact, I tended to almost always be early, and offer to do more - thus leaving him not only with nothing legit to harp on - but an honest to god sense of appreciation for me and my professionalism. And I did this all for the sole purpose of wanting to NEVER be the legitimate reason for someone to gripe.

The only reason a butthead's rant about your pro behavior would matter is if it had some grain of truth to it. Otherwise, it's very easy to blow off a hot head's ranting. You just smile, and say, OK, man... Gotcha! - wink, do that little 'tchk' sound and point at him like you're shooting him with a little finger gun.

All that said, he'll probably still find a way to get under your skin and ultimately you'll just say, "OK, man, Gotcha! Wink, do all that other stuff, and turn in your notice and go find a band that isn't filled with buttheads.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Yeah, the thing is I'm usually the most 'pro' of my band, which probably accounts for him giving me that speech - it was a way for him to be 'better than me'. I always know the music, (besides last time) I'm always on time, I always have my gear ready with spares to share... there's really nothing to complain about when it comes to me unless you just dislike me - which, given him, isn't an impossibility.

I think Scott hit the nail in the head. I created a Google calender and a Facebook page in order to prevent these sorts of miscommunications. But go figure, he didn't use them in this situation, so it's more my word against his... and you can't fix an a-hole. If there's something I can add to TB it's this - you can be 'perfect' and still not be good enough.

 

[ChrisB2]

Oh, you're good enough- in the eyes of a decent, reasonable person.

It's just that you're in a band with a jerk.

I personally wouldn't be okay with a long-term policy of bending to his every whim in order to try and avoid his jerkish behavior. Sure, it might keep you out of his crosshairs, or keep the band together, but I can't roll like that.

You did nothing wrong. There was no justification for his attitude and comments. I wouldn't blame you if you'd punched his lights out.

My only "advice" would be, why are you thinking of quitting, when you seem to like this project, and he is being the jerk here? I would rather see you get rid of this guy.

As for a "clear the air" meeting with the band, it may be necessary in this case. I don't know who has the most control and power, but if it ain't you, you can't hardly "kick him out." You might need to get the band together and fire him.

Or, you might just hang in there a little while longer and see if he self-destructs. You can always quit or mount a coup or do whatever at a later date, whereas quitting is final.

Hard to say from here what exactly should be done, but I'd hate to see you quit a band you like because of a jerk who should go.

Good luck.

 

[Jason P Bass]

My only "advice" would be, why are you thinking of quitting, when you seem to like this project, and he is being the jerk here? I would rather see you get rid of this guy.


Good luck.

The counter argument here is that trying to push the guitar player out might be seen as forcing your own will on the other band mates. Some people might not find that acceptable. For my own part, I would never try to persuade the other guys to kick someone out of the band - even when I was in a band with someone that I believe should be formally diagnosed as a psychopath. I would rather quit, and if the band decides they want me more than the other guy, they are free to get rid of him and give me a call.

Or, the OP might discover that nobody wants the guitar player anymore, in which case there is a clear path forward without politics or persuasion.

Not trying to argue the point - I agree with you in principle but some people might consider persuading the band members to be a greater evil than leaving a band with a jerk.

 

[ChrisB2]

The counter argument here is that trying to push the guitar player out might be seen as forcing your own will on the other band mates. Some people might not find that acceptable. For my own part, I would never try to persuade the other guys to kick someone out of the band - even when I was in a band with someone that I believe should be formally diagnosed as a psychopath. I would rather quit, and if the band decides they want me more than the other guy, they are free to get rid of him and give me a call.

Or, the OP might discover that nobody wants the guitar player anymore, in which case there is a clear path forward without politics or persuasion.

Not trying to argue the point - I agree with you in principle but some people might consider persuading the band members to be a greater evil than leaving a band with a jerk.

I appreciate that, I'm not arguing either, but I wasn't necessarily suggesting that OP persuade the band to go against their own will, but rather find out what their positions are. If everyone wants to keep the jerk, then fine, now I can quit knowing it's the right move. But what if the other members are already, or soon will be, wanting him gone too? How would he "discover" this without asking around?

OP doesn't reveal anything about where the other members stand in regards to this guy's actions and attitude. I would want to know that before making a decision, wouldn't you? You don't have to persuade anyone, you could guage them by just saying "Man I feel like Jerry kinda ripped me out of nowhere. Was I wrong or what?" and waiting for the response.

Everyone handles things differently. That's why I closed with "Hard to say from here what exactly should be done." But I would hate to quit a project I liked because of a jerk. Personally I would fight for my position if necessary. And I'm not above a little campaigning for myself if need be.

 

[Jason P Bass]

Yeah I think we're in complete agreement. I didn't mean to suggest that the OP should quit by surprise. I was assuming that the rest of the band is at least aware of the guitar player's behavior and would understand what is going on. You're completely right that he should have some idea where the other guys stand before making a move.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I want to thank all you guys for the advice - there's a lot of good stuff here, and, as I'm sure you all know, there's really no 'right' way for me to go about this.

Ultimately, I think I'll have to be the one to duck out, but for reasons not really related to the guitarist in question. I have to be back in Memphis for summer classes, and the rest of the band will be in Knoxville for break. My singer actually called me today to discuss possibly replacing me as I won't be in town for a solid two months - can't say I blame them, and I appreciate the heads up, but I still think it's kinda crappy given my level of involvement with the band.

To be honest, though, this wouldn't really bother me too much. I have little doubt that once myself and the second guitarist are gone that the band will eventually dissolve as guitarist number one tries to take over and make it his band. Our drummer has too many projects as it is to take the time to 'start over' again with this band, and my singer and guitarist both come from very different musical backgrounds and likely won't be able to find common ground (which is what myself and our second guitarist provided).

 

[Freez]

I take just as long to set up, even when they don't pay me AT ALL.

Music is not a job for me. It's a mission.

And how in the heck do you do a 4 piece band with an 8, or even 12 channel board? Three singers, that's three channels; two bass players, that's two more; two acoustic guitars, that's two more; lead guitar, there's one; keyboard, there's one.

That's NINE channels, and we haven't talked about drums yet! Granted, most bands would use one less channel for bass, but that's still EIGHT. How do you put drums on FOUR channels?

Kick, snare, tom, tom, tom, tom, high-hat; I get SEVEN, and I don't even mic cymbals!

I think people need to understand that different types of bands have different needs. My first live show was in 1979, and I STILL don't see how we can set up in under two hours, no matter what you all say!

Sounds to me like your mission is gear setup...that's a joke, don't get yer panties in a bunch!

Not sure if you mistyped, but you mention 4 piece band, and then go on to talk about 2 bass players, 3 guitar players, keys, and a bunch of vocalists. I have a 4 piece band, that means 4 guys in the band. 2 guitars, bass, and drummer; three of us sing. A twelve channel board is plenty, we mic the kit, not each individual drum; that's bigtime overkill for most bars and clubs in our area. Hell, half the bars around here you don't need to mike the drums at all. You're obviously a larger band, and maybe you play bigger halls. But most of the posters here seem to agree; 4 hours is a loooooong setup time.

 

[mellowinman]

Sounds to me like your mission is gear setup...that's a joke, don't get yer panties in a bunch!

Not sure if you mistyped, but you mention 4 piece band, and then go on to talk about 2 bass players, 3 guitar players, keys, and a bunch of vocalists. I have a 4 piece band, that means 4 guys in the band. 2 guitars, bass, and drummer; three of us sing. A twelve channel board is plenty, we mic the kit, not each individual drum; that's bigtime overkill for most bars and clubs in our area. Hell, half the bars around here you don't need to mike the drums at all. You're obviously a larger band, and maybe you play bigger halls. But most of the posters here seem to agree; 4 hours is a loooooong setup time.

Just to be clear, my band has 4 people in it.

Arthur - Guitar, Vocals
Tim - Drums
Krystal - Lead Vocals, Bass
Me - Lead Vocals, Acoustic Guitar, Bass, Keyboards, Harmonica, Rhythm Instruments

We are often a 4 piece, but sometimes during the evening we can be two different 3 pieces.

And I know it sounds stupid, but I would put just as much time into setup in a tiny bar, or even a parking lot. I REALLY like the sound to be perfect.

 

[Freez]

Just to be clear, my band has 4 people in it.

Arthur - Guitar, Vocals
Tim - Drums
Krystal - Lead Vocals, Bass
Me - Lead Vocals, Acoustic Guitar, Bass, Keyboards, Harmonica, Rhythm Instruments

We are often a 4 piece, but sometimes during the evening we can be two different 3 pieces.

And I know it sounds stupid, but I would put just as much time into setup in a tiny bar, or even a parking lot. I REALLY like the sound to be perfect.

A four piece plus two three pieces? Thats like, 10 people!

 

[mellowinman]

A four piece plus two three pieces? Thats like, 10 people!

Yeah, and we usually get paid like 2.

 

[KingRazor]

I really tried not to. I told him that he needed to accept responsibility for his negligence and to apologize to me, but he didn't. Actually, he texted my later that night after the gig and told me that he has "a bassist lined up that doesn't **** around on bar gigs when his (my guitarist's) name is on the line, and that I can't just show up to a gig whenever I feel like it." I told him he was acting like a spoiled brat.

I am a pretty even-tempered person, and not prone to violence. Anyone who knows me well will attest to this...

But you have far more restraint than I do, because I would have punched that guy in the face long before it got to this point.

 

[Downunderwonder]

As far as the jerk guitarist goes, he's out of line. Find out what his agenda is before you do anything rash. If he's being a dickhead for the sake of it there's nothing much you can do about it except keep on him to keep you up to date with requirements.

Is he BL? You have a singer? If he's the singer you got double trouble.

About setup. Does nobody else have to be set up before dinner service? Here it is S.O.P to be all set before diners are reading menuboards outside. No restaurant/bar/nightspot wants to put off potential diners with loading in and soundchecking. I'm really surprised y'all get away with that.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I actually talked to my drummer last night about this whole situation. He was very straight with me about the situation and I told him about my views. Apparently both him and our singer think the guitarist is emotionally compromised - so my spot in the band is basically safe. He told me that the singer and him had been talking about stuff, and since he (my drummer) knows ever 'good' bassist in town, he knows I won't be going anywhere for a few reasons (not worth going into now).

Funny enough, him and our singer both acknowledge that our guitarist is controlling and that he's trying to take over. It was refreshing talking to him last night because he basically said that he knew exactly where I was coming from and that he understood my position and even agreed with it. That said, I don't think we'll be removing the guitarist, but it was great knowing that the rest of the band had my back and was willing to tell him off.

 

[Jason P Bass]

Funny enough, him and our singer both acknowledge that our guitarist is controlling and that he's trying to take over. It was refreshing talking to him last night because he basically said that he knew exactly where I was coming from and that he understood my position and even agreed with it. That said, I don't think we'll be removing the guitarist, but it was great knowing that the rest of the band had my back and was willing to tell him off.

Here is what I said on page 1:

At this point, if you stay with the band, you get what you deserve. You know how he acts. ... You know the problem will continue. If you're still in this band tomorrow, it's your fault. Just my opinion.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Here is what I said on page 1:

Fair enough, but one thing the drummer and I discussed was that we (as a band) are going to need to fix my relationship with the guitarist if this is going to continue.

I'm also beginning to look at other bands as well as I don't want to have all my eggs in one basket in case this thing blows up.