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Increase string tension by reversing headstock?

What's that? Just because an "organization" subscribes to a theory certainly doesn't make it correct. On a large scale maybe it's a logical thing to do because it compensates for shortcomings on a lousy piano. But in a concert regulated and well maintained piano like mine, it doesn't work. The results don't lie. Having good ears is not a prerequisite for building or maintaining instruments. Or for joining organizations like the PTG. The only down side of this is that I only know one person who can put a good tuning on my piano and he doesn't live near by. In a good piano, stretching doesn't sound good. I'd suggest that people that believe it does believe it because they've never heard one that wasn't. The last PTG member who tuned my piano couldn't set a pin for cr@p. The unisons were out in a couple weeks. And, yes, it was rebuilt a year or so ago and all, including the pin block and strings, are pristine. I don't buy it...literally.

So are you saying that octave stretching is some kind of communist conspiracy?

Inharmonicity exists. That's not debatable. Piano strings are very stiff and as such require special attention when tuning. If you hire a tuner who tunes a spinet and 9' grand with the same stretch tuning than yes, it will sound horrible. But to say that octave stretching only makes pianos sound bad is just wrong.
 
Good lord no, it's not conspiracy. Please. Don't make this into something neurotic. Car companies detune the engines of cars to make them quieter or run on 87 octane gas. It's stupid to a person who wants performance...but to most of the market it's desirable. It's not a conspiracy against people who like performance from their cars. On the contrary, it's an opportunity to get more from you car with a little educated modification. Maybe the same is true for pianos. Maybe for the average consumer stretching yields a good result. I'd be happy to send you a recording of my piano without a stretched tuning. You can hear what I'm talking about. And I'd be shocked if anyone suggested that it sounded out of tune. Why are you being so agressive? I'm not suggesting that enharmonicity is some fabricated concept that the PTG invented to justify stretching octaves. I'm just saying that compensating for it by tuning a high string to an unnatural harmonic in a low string is sensless. 1024Hz is an octave above 512Hz. That NEVER changes no matter what.
 
For what it's worth in this discussion, I will say that I'm NOT a fan of stretched tuning within equal temperament instruments like a piano.

The confounding factor is that I'm a huge proponent of just intonation in vocal and other temperamental instrument (like an accordian, for example). It deals with the inharmonicity in a very elegant way...but it's not practical for a all-key (in the musical sense not the physical key sense) instrument like a piano.

Stretched octaves, at least to me, seem like an inelegant way of compensating for the problems inherent in both just and equal temperaments, and even if mathematically it's shown to be the more 'proper' solution I still don't like it because of what it does with thirds as well as greater octave spans. It's the thirds that really get me, though.

But this is why I didn't want to weigh in on this, as even the higher ups where I do research debate this pretty heatedly in various manor.

In the morning I'll get to responding to the string vibration issue after my myriad doctor appointments. A piano string and a bass string can't be dynamically analyzed in quite the same way due to how they're plucked- it induces a substantially more complex motion than that of a piano string (which is struck in the direction of wave propagation; we hit perpendicular).

Thanks for your time here, Mike.
 
I'm curious...if a piano doesn't sound of out of tune without a stretch, what was the inspiration for stretching? Do some pianos sound out of tune that way? In my family we have a Hamburg Steinway D (9'), a Hamburg Steinway C (7'6"), a NY Steinway M (a little under 6' I think), a Mason&Hamlin AA, a Mason&Hamlin A, and a Yamaha U3. They all get tuned by the same guy and they all sound great that way (no stretch). So why stretch? What made someone say, "hey, this piano is tuned to exact octaves. That CAN'T be right." I'm fully aware there's a defensible reason. But what is it?
 
Yeah I could kill Gumbi for posting that. My wife (high school chorus teacher) called me once to tell me that her students had found some great videos of me playing.....AND DRINKING. Great! For the record, those three were all I had! And the other guy (Tony) was hurtin' later on. Nothing like a little alcohol to tame those upper partials :-)
 
Absolutely! I never laughed so hard as I did when I was hanging with him. He's really intelligent and well read. Half Cuban, Half Puerto Rican. Grew up in the South Bronx in the 60's. He's been around the block....hell he IS the block!
 
I'm curious...if a piano doesn't sound of out of tune without a stretch, what was the inspiration for stretching? Do some pianos sound out of tune that way? In my family we have a Hamburg Steinway D (9'), a Hamburg Steinway C (7'6"), a NY Steinway M (a little under 6' I think), a Mason&Hamlin AA, a Mason&Hamlin A, and a Yamaha U3. They all get tuned by the same guy and they all sound great that way (no stretch). So why stretch? What made someone say, "hey, this piano is tuned to exact octaves. That CAN'T be right." I'm fully aware there's a defensible reason. But what is it?

When you hear two notes, say C0 and C2, if there is enough harmonic content the main thing that your brain uses to determine whether they are in tune is to compare the C2 harmonic of C0 with the C2 fundamental. So since the C2 harmonic of C0 is sharp compared to C0 you hear the interval as being out of tune unless it's stretched.

That is the basic principle, albeit poorly worded.
 
I see. Still, the natural overtones of a fundamental in air are what they are. And in the air, which is what ultimately vibrates your eardrum, the third harmonic of 128Hz is 512Hz exactly. I understand that the string isn't perfect in nature and that the mid-point node isn't exatly in the middle, but why is it good to emphasize this unnatural phenomenon if no stretch sounds in tune...which it clearly does on a good piano with proper strings? The theory says that a piano string is out of phase with itself, right? The overtones are out of phase with the fundamental, right? So why do you want your upper strings to be out of phase with the lower ones? For one, it kills the sustain of the piano because the fundamentals are no longer sympathetic. Phase distortion is a nasty issue in audio/electronics. Why is it so gladly embraced in the context of the acoustics of a piano?

I know stretching is a common thing to do. But I can't accept that it's correct unless my ear tells me it is. There's as much math to support stretching as there is to support not stretching. So who decided which math to use? As far as I'm concerned, and let me remind you that I am by NO MEANS the only person in world who thinks this way, the piano specific anomolies at play here simply don't negate the hard and fast rules of nature which say, without a doubt, that an perfect octave is an exact doubling in frequency from 1Hz to 32767Hz and so on. All exactly C's.

An interesting side note to this is that in a Big Band, the horns all tend to play very sharp. In my experience if they don't, it often DOES sound flat, even if it's dead on pitch. Strange. It often made getting my intonation on upright together a real challenge when I was in school.
 
A couple excerpts from wikipedia, if you want a more 'reputable' source there is this book which is excellent: http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Servicing-Tuning-Rebuilding-Second/dp/1879511037

Basically this is saying what I said earlier. Since the harmonics on a piano are all sharp (this is inescapable) the tuner must compensate.

-------------------------------------
(preceded by an equal temperament chart)
The tuning described by the above beating plan will give a good approximation of equal temperament across the range of the temperament octave. If it were extended further, however, the actual tuning of the instrument would become increasingly inaccurate. This is due to a factor known as inharmonicity, which is present in different amounts on all piano strings. The harmonic series of strings does not fall exactly into whole-number multiples of a fundamental frequency, but rather each harmonic is slightly sharper than a whole-number ratio, and this sharpness increases as higher tones in the harmonic series are reached. This means that an aurally tuned octave will be slightly wider than the just 2:1 ratio assumed above, known as a stretched octave. The amount of stretching depends on the style of piano and is determined mainly by the length of the strings: shorter pianos such as baby grands and spinets will have octaves that are stretched farther than concert grands.

This has the effect that, on a piano, the notes in the higher register will end up slightly sharper than those in the lower octave. This is less apparent on longer pianos which have proportionally thinner strings (string inharmonicity is directly related to the ratio of string thickness to length). Despite this deviation from the simpler ideal equal temperament, this is considered the correct way to tune a piano because it maintains interval identity across the piano, which generally improves the sound of music played on it.

----------------------------

In tuning, the relationship between two notes (known musically as an interval) is determined by evaluating their common harmonics. For example, we say two notes are an octave apart when the fundamental frequency of the upper note exactly matches the second harmonic of the lower note. Theoretically, this means the fundamental frequency of the upper note is exactly twice that of the lower note, and we would assume that the second harmonic of the upper note will exactly match the fourth harmonic of the lower note.

On instruments strung with metal wire, however, neither of these assumptions is valid, and inharmonicity is the reason.

Inharmonicity refers to the difference between the theoretical and actual frequencies of the harmonics or overtones of a vibrating tine or string. The theoretical frequency of the second harmonic is twice the fundamental frequency, and of the third harmonic is three times the fundamental frequency, and so on. But on metal strings, tines, and reeds, the measured frequencies of those harmonics are slightly higher, and proportionately more so in the higher than in the lower harmonics. A digital emulation of these instruments must recreate this inharmonicity if it is to sound convincing.
 
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Interesting. So then are you saying a stretched octave will produce beats? I'm gathering that it shouldn't according to the info you put in your last post.
No, the way I understand it is: an octave (or 16va, etc.) played on a properly stretch-tuned piano will not beat, because the higher note is slightly sharper than double (or quadruple, etc.) the frequency of the fundamental of the lower note, as are the lower note's own harmonics.
 
So I guess I read that right. What about the laws of nature, though? Why are we ignoring them. The octaves on my piano don't beat nor do those of any other piano in my family. Why? They're not stretched...so how is that possible? According to the above post that's impossible.
 
What laws of nature are being ignored?

The beating of an octave interval might not be that obvious. It would also be obfuscated by the fact that there are multiple strings associated with each note. If I wanted to listen for beats I would damp all but one string on each note with felt. Then probably try a two octave interval. Remember, the further apart the notes are the more the interval needs to be stretched.
 
The law that says that an octave is an exact doubling in frequency. I'm not arguing that the string's overtones aren't sharp. Please understand that. I know they are. That's what inharmonicity is. I'm just trying to understand why my piano sounds perfectly in tune without a stretched octave tuning.
 
Sorry for the short reply- I WILL give a longer one later, but been a long day at the doctor. I'll give you some hard numbers later, though.

One of the things to remember, too, is that you aren't just dealing with partials ABOVE fundamental pitch. Even when a pitch of 440 is played, you can still measure (and we fill in psychoacoustically) a pitch of 220, 110, 55, etc. So we can't just look at the effect of a stretched octave between 440 and 880, as when 880 is played we still fill in the lower octave tones. So if you stretch 880 to 884 to match 440's 2nd partial, we'll now often hear 442 in our head. Oops. Stretching affects the tuning up and down, it's just that they only gauge the tuning going upward.

More later. Sorry if that was a bit vague; I'll clarify later when the vicodin wears off.
 
Angus

I'm not too sure about that. The way I've learned it, if you hear a tone which has a normal overtone structure, with the exception that the fundamental has been removed, your brain will fill in the missing fundamental frequency, giving you the perception of having heard a full tone. This is not the same as your brain adding in extra sub-fundamentals.