@jmjbassplayer - I certainly respect the great bassist that you are, and the wonderful career that you have built. It's just that it may be just as logical to want to become an astronaut as to achieve what you've achieved. I'd like to have done what what, in my age group, Lee Sklar, has done. However, it's pretty nice to be 67, debt free with a paid for house, etc.. Ah, well...
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Insight on a Career in Music
- Thread starter beanpitonak
- Start date
The real problem with a music career is that the entire pursuit is not a meritocracy, and is largely based on luck, circumstance, and being in the right place at the right time.
I've seen dozens of guys KILL themselves doing the $30 Blues gigs, the no-money production work, and the low-pay tours and studio jobs for years. They were nice guys, looked the part, and legitimately talented, but their number never came up, and the success lottery didn't pay off. Working your tail off in other industries often pays huge dividends, but not in music. Then, you may be left with no other marketable skills and you'll really be screwed, unless you have a really empathetic breadwinner wife with a stellar benefits package at a legitimate place of employment.
There will always be a surplus of qualified people that could do a particular gig, and there's typically only one spot open. And an already established player will always get the spot. Since musically successful people buddy up and form virtually impenetrable cliques, it's basically impossible to even get a swing at the bat. Established figures in the music business only hire friends that are also established, and they will never take a chance with an unproven player. Even if the newcomer is profoundly talented and experienced, the doors will not swing open while the A-level crew waves them in, unless said candidate is already vetted. This applies to the highest level, down to the local level in major metropolitan areas.
It's possible to work up to A-level, but you have to start in your teens and associate with the right people right out of the gate so you can be at the right place at the right time - which is the most important thing to get a foothold or any sort of traction in this thing. Starting at 33, with no track record and having few, if any, important contacts is simply too late and it's silly to think otherwise. Music, as a possibly available career to those with a little fortune and a lot of work ethic is simply over. It just isn't 1982 anymore.
Depending on luck and hoping for a break is not a wise career plan to make, and that's what this music thing is. It's like telling everybody you're going to be a member of the Lamborghini owner's club, secure in the knowledge that you'll be qualified to join as soon as you win the the Powerball. Is there a chance that could happen? Absolutely. Are the odds in your favor? Probably not, and the same odds of winning the lottery are roughly the same as being able to acheive a relatively substantial income from playing music.
I'm not writing this stuff to be adversarial, and I honestly come in peace. That said, the people that have achieved this are obligated to keep things positive and up because it's sort if a career requirement. No disrespect intended. There are a precious few that tell it like it is out there. However, it is quite pollyanna to not be realistic because a significant number of people will be disappointed and sorry that they pursued this if they are not told.
I've seen dozens of guys KILL themselves doing the $30 Blues gigs, the no-money production work, and the low-pay tours and studio jobs for years. They were nice guys, looked the part, and legitimately talented, but their number never came up, and the success lottery didn't pay off. Working your tail off in other industries often pays huge dividends, but not in music. Then, you may be left with no other marketable skills and you'll really be screwed, unless you have a really empathetic breadwinner wife with a stellar benefits package at a legitimate place of employment.
There will always be a surplus of qualified people that could do a particular gig, and there's typically only one spot open. And an already established player will always get the spot. Since musically successful people buddy up and form virtually impenetrable cliques, it's basically impossible to even get a swing at the bat. Established figures in the music business only hire friends that are also established, and they will never take a chance with an unproven player. Even if the newcomer is profoundly talented and experienced, the doors will not swing open while the A-level crew waves them in, unless said candidate is already vetted. This applies to the highest level, down to the local level in major metropolitan areas.
It's possible to work up to A-level, but you have to start in your teens and associate with the right people right out of the gate so you can be at the right place at the right time - which is the most important thing to get a foothold or any sort of traction in this thing. Starting at 33, with no track record and having few, if any, important contacts is simply too late and it's silly to think otherwise. Music, as a possibly available career to those with a little fortune and a lot of work ethic is simply over. It just isn't 1982 anymore.
Depending on luck and hoping for a break is not a wise career plan to make, and that's what this music thing is. It's like telling everybody you're going to be a member of the Lamborghini owner's club, secure in the knowledge that you'll be qualified to join as soon as you win the the Powerball. Is there a chance that could happen? Absolutely. Are the odds in your favor? Probably not, and the same odds of winning the lottery are roughly the same as being able to acheive a relatively substantial income from playing music.
I'm not writing this stuff to be adversarial, and I honestly come in peace. That said, the people that have achieved this are obligated to keep things positive and up because it's sort if a career requirement. No disrespect intended. There are a precious few that tell it like it is out there. However, it is quite pollyanna to not be realistic because a significant number of people will be disappointed and sorry that they pursued this if they are not told.
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I disagree that its "simply too late". Success, IMO, is going to depend on how much drive and patience you have. In the scene today(speaking as someone who does play full time and makes his entire income from gigging/session work/touring) I think you really need to have your networking chops together. You need to be constantly exploring new opportunities, while making sure you don't step on any toes. Its a bit of a balancing act, but good reputation is much more easily ruined than it is made
I think luck does play a part in it, but you also can create the opportunities for you to have luck, and land a great gig. The guys I know who work all the time have a constant and insatiable desire to get better, learn more, find new music, meet new artists etc. Tough in this landscape to have anything handed to you...I hear you. For some, that is not enough. For some, it's entirely about the pursuit, not the attainment or the security. And if my career imploded today, I'd start over tomorrow. And my kids would be fine.
Yeah, you lost me at "success lottery".
Sure glad your theories on how someone makes it in music (luck, circumstance, being in the right place at the right time) weren't the main things I heard as a young person with dreams, who worked his ass off to get where he is now. I would have given up early on had I paid attention to that vibe.
This is the zone and peer group I inhabit, and I have 30 years of empirical evidence that folks get here by, PRIMARILY: 1) being excellent at what they do, 2) being a good person to work with and be around, 3) making necessary sacrifices at every turn and bleeding for it out of pure love, and 4) being doggedly persistent. Luck and circumstance play a part, but they are way in the back.
As to your assertion that "people that have achieved this are obligated to keep things positive and up because it's sort if a career requirement". I never read that in the manual. Nor do I see that as a constant stance from other pro's. I'm certainly not blithely telling folks to just jump out of the nest, naive and unprepared, with unrealistic expectations. There is a balance to this.
Do you think that I'm one of those people who isn't telling it like it is? I'm speaking not only from the heart, but also because I have repeated experience mentoring people who started out nowhere and ended up somewhere. Plus my own career.
Odds: who gets anything done if they measure things by odds? Yeah, the odds suck. But this is a career that one can be constantly proactive about, not a lottery that is a purely passive exercise based only upon hope. The two activities aren't even in the same universe.
"starting at 33...is simply too late". Man, SAYS WHO?
It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
We have in Portugal, for example, a pretty good national act (one of my favorite bands) and they are not professional musicians. Well, they are pros, they just aren't exclusive. As I remember, the singer and the drummer are lawyers. And they practice.
What that allows them to do is being totally free, creatively speaking. They do what they want and they have a core of die hard fans (myself included).
You may or may not like their style, but they are doing something right, they are in the scene since 1984.
Mão Morta - Wikipedia
They just do what they want. Love it. The drummer is a lawyer for his City Hall.
We have in Portugal, for example, a pretty good national act (one of my favorite bands) and they are not professional musicians. Well, they are pros, they just aren't exclusive. As I remember, the singer and the drummer are lawyers. And they practice.
What that allows them to do is being totally free, creatively speaking. They do what they want and they have a core of die hard fans (myself included).
You may or may not like their style, but they are doing something right, they are in the scene since 1984.
Mão Morta - Wikipedia
They just do what they want. Love it. The drummer is a lawyer for his City Hall.
The only possible part of the equation that can be considered "luck" or "winning the success lottery" is having your music connect with a very large audience that will pay to own your recordings and see you perform. There are people who did all the right things and could never make that connection, yes. But other than Fabian, the famous people I know worked their asses off for it. And even Fabian worked his ass off once he got the opportunity and he still does to this day.
I see nothing "pollyanna" about anything that was said in this thread. It's work, it's sacrifice, and at the end of the day, you may not make a killing. But it's very possible to have a decent career and make a good middle class income, as long as you're hardworking, have some sort of direction, you're fairly easy to get along with, and you have the skills required. But if all you care about is "making it" and making a killing, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons and you probably won't get very far. Music is a job that you do because you love it.
I'm a history professor, and I'll just chime in that @jmjbassplayer 's response is similar to what I tell students who are thinking of getting a PhD and going into academia (which is a career nightmare these days): it's worth doing... IF you really cannot possibly imagine yourself being happy doing anything else. And you need to be really realistic with yourself, asking the question in that "if."
Hi Jimmy, glad you like it, they are not for everyone!
It's a great band, the lyrics are beautiful, very dark and introspective. He is a great poet.
I lost count of how many concerts I saw. It's a cult band. I have been listening to them since my cousin borrowed me a Best Of in the 90's. Opened my horizons. I attend their concerts ever since.
Check it out:
This one is in my city. I was there, during the late 90s to the late 2000s I think I saw them around 20 times. Adolfo gets in the zone and the audience follows. The live concerts are something else:
Edit: sorry for the derail.
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For 13 or 14 years I played fulltime (6-7 nights a week back when those gigs existed, plus what studio work there was in the area ), while teaching 50+ students a week. So, while not in LA or NYC, I HAVE made my living as a musician. When I went through a divorce, I took a job with a music wholesale company, selling to music stores. After 10 years of that, I opened the guitar shop I've had for 25 years. Oh, and along the way, I had (as a songwriter) a publishing contract with ATV Music, the biggest in the world. So I don't speak without knowledge of the industry. Just so you know...oh, BTW, I have an endorsement with Supro for their Huntington Bass. Not a signature model, but a pretty cool bass, nonetheless...;-)
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No one has mentioned this yet, but doesn't location make a huge difference? Yes, LA, NYC and Nashville are competitive, but that's where most of the work is.
That said, it's very possible to do the "big fish in a little pond" scene in cities where the scene is not as robust as the three biggie cities. But yes, there does have to be gigs available. If you live in a tiny city in the Dust Bowl 100 miles away from even one joint to play, you might consider moving.
Thanks, Justin, it HAS been a great career! And still doing it...
JMJ and others have given you great advice.
I went the other way. I played regionally for a living for the better part of two decades. Then I met a woman I wanted to see every day and we had kids I wanted to see every day. So I transitioned to a day job and a dad band (albeit a good one). I wouldn't change a thing about my path. I'm the luckiest/happiest goofball on Earth. But my path isn't yours. Nor should it be. So all I can say is GOOD LUCK! I hope you get everything you go after. As long as you have the support of your wife, go for it.
I'm one who went the other way, full time when younger, out of it for years, back on a semi-pro basis now. Ideas that I haven't seen mentioned so far.
1. It's a business, and you have a lot of professional skills to think about . Networking, strategic management of what you do, how you dress, move and look on stage, being good to work with. All the guys I know who make a living at it in the long term work hard at those things as well as the music.
2. People have pointed out that doing different things gives you more ways to make money, but also the things you want from life change as you get older, and a range of things you can do gives you more options.
3. Try and find a cash-cow. A producer I worked with had a gig doing incidental music for a TV show. That gave him a financial base, and he could do most of the work when he wasn't on tour. Another owned and operated a studio, with other engineers who could fill in when he was on the road. And lots of guys teach, obviously. It's not a sell out if it lets you do things that you are passionate about.
4. There is probably an age consideration....there are more opportunities when you are younger. But that's true in a lot of career areas. Don't let it defeat you. Just think about how to counter it.
Good luck. Don't die wondering!!
1. It's a business, and you have a lot of professional skills to think about . Networking, strategic management of what you do, how you dress, move and look on stage, being good to work with. All the guys I know who make a living at it in the long term work hard at those things as well as the music.
2. People have pointed out that doing different things gives you more ways to make money, but also the things you want from life change as you get older, and a range of things you can do gives you more options.
3. Try and find a cash-cow. A producer I worked with had a gig doing incidental music for a TV show. That gave him a financial base, and he could do most of the work when he wasn't on tour. Another owned and operated a studio, with other engineers who could fill in when he was on the road. And lots of guys teach, obviously. It's not a sell out if it lets you do things that you are passionate about.
4. There is probably an age consideration....there are more opportunities when you are younger. But that's true in a lot of career areas. Don't let it defeat you. Just think about how to counter it.
Good luck. Don't die wondering!!
Fascinating thread! Also hilarious how some people are questioning the validity of the advice/experience of the Pro who was asked about career success in his own forum! 
Justin - Thanks for showing up in this forum regularly year after year! Interesting to hear that you sometimes have to take lowish-paying gigs to keep things moving forward. One thing I've found among successful people in any field is that while they possess taste, skill, and discernment, they don't feel that they're "better than" the work that needs to be done in the day-to-day.
I know people who are making a living in the music biz, even at this stage in the game. Some as performers, others as producers/studio owners/mixing or mastering engineers, making instruments or electronic gear, teaching, getting music placed in TV or movies -- or a mix of all the above. Besides talent, persistence, attitude, and people skills are what keep these folks in the running. It helps to be young with minimal living expenses and attachments, others I know have supportive spouses or family resources. I supported myself as a jobbing bassist for a few years, then realized I'd rather have a day job than playing music I didn't believe in.
Ari Herstand's site/book is essential for anyone considering a music career these days.
And Tape Op magazine is probably the best, most inspiring resource around for getting insight into how recording artists/producers/engineers have built and sustained their crazy careers.
Justin - Thanks for showing up in this forum regularly year after year! Interesting to hear that you sometimes have to take lowish-paying gigs to keep things moving forward. One thing I've found among successful people in any field is that while they possess taste, skill, and discernment, they don't feel that they're "better than" the work that needs to be done in the day-to-day.
I know people who are making a living in the music biz, even at this stage in the game. Some as performers, others as producers/studio owners/mixing or mastering engineers, making instruments or electronic gear, teaching, getting music placed in TV or movies -- or a mix of all the above. Besides talent, persistence, attitude, and people skills are what keep these folks in the running. It helps to be young with minimal living expenses and attachments, others I know have supportive spouses or family resources. I supported myself as a jobbing bassist for a few years, then realized I'd rather have a day job than playing music I didn't believe in.
Ari Herstand's site/book is essential for anyone considering a music career these days.
And Tape Op magazine is probably the best, most inspiring resource around for getting insight into how recording artists/producers/engineers have built and sustained their crazy careers.
