• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Intonation feel on long scales

jj.833

jj.833

Oct 19, 2006
1,412
2,241
47
prague czech republic
#1
Hi, and thank for immersing into this lenghty post.

I’ve been practising slow vibrato on 3 octave scales (bowing). The excersise goes very slow, I usually play a single scale once up and down for perhaps 20 minutes. During the excersise I often lose my intonation, as the tones are very long, somewhat smeared by vibrato, and tiring. So I developed a range of intonation dummies based on harmonics, which I use to verify my intonation. Most are obvious, some perhaps not.

I wanted to ask what method of strenghtening intonation feel on very long tones others use, and whether the dummies I use might contain some errors. For example, dummies 9 (f#2) and 11 (b2) should theoretically sound a bit lower than right tempered intonation, but to my ears they are accurate more than any other method of intonation control I can think of.

I don’t want to use drones or even look at tuners, I think I’m past that stage. I don’t have intonation problems when playing into other sounds; I’m trying to develop a solo intonation feel and find these scale excersises very effective.

I’m also curious whether non bowing players use any range of intonation dummies of similar kind.

The example is B harmonic minor from Rabbath 3; it’s not important, any scale works, some offering more dummies, some less. However, Rabbath scales often prefer higher positions on lower strings, likely for pedagogical reasons. From what I hear, on lower strings the impact of bowing technique on intonation is higher. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone told me that low strings harmonics (like b on E string) might be out of tune due to impact of bow.

scale-hints.png


My intonation dummies:
1 (B) = 5th to open E string, compared melodically
2 (g) = open g
3 (b) = 5th to natural harmonic on e on A string (sounding e1)
- (d1) = octave harmonic d1 on d string (so obvious I forgot to show it)
4 (e1) = 5th to natural harmonic on a on A sting (sounding a)
5 (g1) = natural harmonic on g on g string (sounding g1)
6 (b1) = 5th to natural harmonic on e1 on A string (sounding e1)
7 (d2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding d2)
8 (e2) = 5th to natural harmonic a1 on A string (sounding a1)
9 (f#2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding few cents lower than f#2)
10 (g2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding g2)
11 (b2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding few cents lower than b2)

Pitch descriptions: I’m using german (?) way of describing octaves: B means great octave (B2), b small octave (B3), b1 1-line octave (B4), etc. All octaves are described as written, thus sounding an octave lower.
 
#3
Okay this is going to be a super nerdy wall of text and I sincerely apologize ahead of time. This is something I've thought a lot about and I love sharing it with people.

As a preface, it's important to remember that physics (the harmonic series) is a natural phenomenon that spits on the artificial construct that is 12 tone equal temperament and that all intonation is a compromise between the natural resonances of the instrument and the realities of performance. When playing solo we can tune to the natural resonances of the bass and go for what sounds best given the context (and with many solo bass pieces or the Bach cello suites there are often chords that use open strings or harmonics and we can tune those notes vertically), but when playing with people (particularly with fixed pitch instruments like keyboards and guitars) our default is going to have to be equal temperament. Also for minor keys I tend to practice and intonate based on harmonic minor since it's the default when composers build chord progressions (plus the augmented second does throw a wrench into some fingerings) and the major sixth and minor seventh don't have much harmonic function in minor keys.

I like using drones to work on intonation when playing scales. I know in your post that you mention that you don't necessarily want to use drones, but I think they are important for establishing a kind of consistency. In your system the high B is going to be considerably flatter than the 3 Bs you generated previously, and while I am a big fan of tuning to the natural resonances of the instrument, when playing scales I still prefer to keep all notes in the same spot with regards to tuning: the second, fourth, and fifth scale degrees are always going to be some amount of pure fifths above the root; the third, sixth, and seventh scale degrees are going to be tuned as pure thirds above or below the root or the pure fifth of the root; and notes will always (except on a couple rare occasions that I'll get to at the very end) be equivalent in different octaves.

I have an app on my phone (Tonal Energy) that allows me to generate drones for pure intervals in any key: there is a "just intonation" mode where you select the root note in equal temperament and all the other notes generated are going to be derived from some combination of pure thirds or fifths related to the root; for the non-open string keys I pick an open string to use as my "home base" and then use the root and fifth of the scale I'm actually practicing. When I tune to drones, I listen for when any beating between a fingered note and the drone stops. This will result in notes being in different places in different keys (e.g. an F in C major is going to be flatter than an F in D minor). Make peace with this fact. I also use a root and a fifth when I tune to drones rather than just the root because with just the root there are some intervals where it's unclear as to whether a note is actually in tune. Now, how I select which open string I use as the base from which the pitches are generated goes through sort of this flow:
  • Is the root an open string?
This step gives us the open string keys (G, D, A, and E major and minor).

From here things get a little murkier and I have to tune the root note of the key to a shared harmonic between the root and an open string. My rules for this are that the harmonics are limited to the first five partials for either the open string or the stopped note (the first, second, and fourth partials are the open string, an octave above, and 2 octaves above the open string; the third partial is an octave and a fifth above the open string; and the fifth partial is 2 octaves and a third above the open string): for the open strings it's G, B, D for the G string; D, F-sharp, A for the D string; A, C-sharp, E for the A string; and E, G-sharp, B for the E string. Here, it's important to remember that while the first 4 partials of the harmonic series are basically equivalent to their equal tempered version (the third partial is a hair sharp but it's not really noticeable until you start stacking multiple pure fifths on top of each other), the fifth partial is noticeably flat compared to the equal tempered version of that note; while the B harmonic on the E string is pretty close to an equal tempered B, the B harmonic on the G string is quite flat compared to an equal tempered B. We have now stumbled upon the fundamental issue that has plagued temperaments for centuries, which is that in order to maintain octave equivalency some amount of modifying (or tempering) the third and fifth has to be done. Another very important thing to keep in mind now is that sharps and flats are not the same note and that when purely tuned sharps will be flat and flats will be sharp. Anyway, for the next few keys the flowchart continues as such:
  • Is the root a third or fifth partial of an open string?
  • Is an open string the third or fifth partial of the root?
This will generate the following keys: F-sharp major and minor, C-sharp major and minor, and G-sharp minor, which are all roots that are third or fifth partials of open strings; and F, B-flat, and E-flat major and minor, which are all roots whose third or fifth partial is an open string. Now, you may have noticed that in the circle of fifths I have skipped over C and B. This is because B appears as both the third partial of the open E string and the fifth partial of open G, and C contains a G as its third partial and an E as its fifth partial. I prefer to tune to the third partial if possible because those will tend to resonate sympathetically more. For C major and minor, I tend to prefer tuning the C to the open G rather than the open E because D and G are more important notes when building chord progressions in C than E and A are, so keeping those open strings is more worth it to me. For B major I tend to prefer tuning to the open E string because B is the fifth partial of E, which is the only open string in B major. For B minor I actually tune the B to the open G string because now there's an open G and D in the mix and there are more notes contained in B minor on those two strings than there are on the E string.

So now we have most of the keys: for the major keys we have E-flat, B-flat, F, C, G, D, A, E, B, F-sharp, and C-sharp and for the minor keys we have E-flat, B-flat, F, C, G, D, A, E, B, F-sharp, C-sharp, and G-sharp. Since we're dealing with enharmonics, that's 23/30 keys which isn't too bad. Of the major keys we're only missing A-flat, D-flat, G-flat, and C-flat and the minor keys we're missing are A-flat, D-sharp, and A-sharp. For these roots, we're going to have to go one step further and derive them from a note's harmonic series that we've previously derived from an open string: A-flat has E-flat as its third partial and C as its fifth partial, both of which we've already derived from the open G string, so we can tune it to either of those notes; D-flat is derived from F because F is the fifth partial of D-flat; G-flat is derived from B-flat; and C-flat is derived from E-flat. For D-sharp we can tune it to either G-sharp or B tuned to the E string because both of those notes contain a D-sharp and A-sharp can be tuned to F-sharp derived from D because F-sharp has an A-sharp as its fifth partial.

The final wrinkle is that using this system F major, F minor, E minor, and G-sharp minor do contain fingerings that use the open G string or a G harmonic (or F-double sharp in the case of G-sharp minor), which is not actually in the key if we're tuning to a pure root and fifth generated from an open string's harmonics: in F major/minor since we're deriving the F from the open A and our C in the key of F is a pure fifth above that (since in the key of A a C will be a pure third below the E harmonic), the resulting G is going to be noticeably sharper than the open G; in E minor, a G that is in tune with E and B from the E string is going to be sharper than the open G; and in G-sharp minor the F-double sharp is considerably flatter than the open G. While a harmonic in any scale fingering can be played as a stopped note, for the open Gs I kinda just get comfortable with the fact that according to the drone any open Gs I play are going to be out of tune with the drone. There are other keys where an open string is out of tune with the root, but I believe these are the only keys where when actually playing a scale in this manner you will encounter that open string (like in C major the open A and E are going to be way sharp, but when playing a 3 octave C major scale you're never actually going to play those notes because the starting C is a higher pitch than either of those strings).

I apologize again for how wordy this post is and if there is any confusion please don't hesitate to ask me. I know this is super complicated, but in practice it's somewhat intuitive, there's just a lot to wrap your head around initially.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldNewbie, jj.833, Paps and 7 others
#6
Once my students reach a certain level we regularly do the "Green Room" exercise. It's a good way to teach them about listening, overtones, and intonation adjustment according to circumstances of performance. Plus, once we get the hang of it it's kind of fun. There's a post on the site about it.
 
#7
jj.833 said:
Hi, and thank for immersing into this lenghty post.

I’ve been practising slow vibrato on 3 octave scales (bowing). The excersise goes very slow, I usually play a single scale once up and down for perhaps 20 minutes. During the excersise I often lose my intonation, as the tones are very long, somewhat smeared by vibrato, and tiring. So I developed a range of intonation dummies based on harmonics, which I use to verify my intonation. Most are obvious, some perhaps not.

I wanted to ask what method of strenghtening intonation feel on very long tones others use, and whether the dummies I use might contain some errors. For example, dummies 9 (f#2) and 11 (b2) should theoretically sound a bit lower than right tempered intonation, but to my ears they are accurate more than any other method of intonation control I can think of.

I don’t want to use drones or even look at tuners, I think I’m past that stage. I don’t have intonation problems when playing into other sounds; I’m trying to develop a solo intonation feel and find these scale excersises very effective.

I’m also curious whether non bowing players use any range of intonation dummies of similar kind.

The example is B harmonic minor from Rabbath 3; it’s not important, any scale works, some offering more dummies, some less. However, Rabbath scales often prefer higher positions on lower strings, likely for pedagogical reasons. From what I hear, on lower strings the impact of bowing technique on intonation is higher. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone told me that low strings harmonics (like b on E string) might be out of tune due to impact of bow.

View attachment 5314313

My intonation dummies:
1 (B) = 5th to open E string, compared melodically
2 (g) = open g
3 (b) = 5th to natural harmonic on e on A string (sounding e1)
- (d1) = octave harmonic d1 on d string (so obvious I forgot to show it)
4 (e1) = 5th to natural harmonic on a on A sting (sounding a)
5 (g1) = natural harmonic on g on g string (sounding g1)
6 (b1) = 5th to natural harmonic on e1 on A string (sounding e1)
7 (d2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding d2)
8 (e2) = 5th to natural harmonic a1 on A string (sounding a1)
9 (f#2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding few cents lower than f#2)
10 (g2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding g2)
11 (b2) = natural harmonic on the same spot (sounding few cents lower than b2)

Pitch descriptions: I’m using german (?) way of describing octaves: B means great octave (B2), b small octave (B3), b1 1-line octave (B4), etc. All octaves are described as written, thus sounding an octave lower.
Click to expand...

The following is IMHO, but maybe I am missing something? I do have a good bit of pro experience, but I am not high-level classical bassist.

My personal feeling is long tones is not the right exercise for working on intonation. The tempo is too slow, so you will loose the pitch center. To me long tones are about improving tone, rather than improving pitch. The exception would be if you have perfect/absolute pitch...which I do not.

Vibrato is also not suitable for intonation practice, because you are purposely varying the pitch...so there is no center.

How you temper a note varies with where you are playing in both the key and chord structure. So IMHO there is no such thing as fixed intonation in real situations unless you are playing only with other instruments that have fixed intonation (like a synthesizer or piano.

I have seen many soloist express the idea of intentionally playing a bit sharp to cut through.

To work on intonation, I used to play through some of the easier Simandl etudes at a relatively slow tempo. The idea was to avoid any other technical challenges so I could focus as much as possible on intonation. I viewed this as calibrating my hand so that intonation was as automatic as possible.

I frequently performed on an Electric Upright (EUB) that did not intonate exactly the same as my real upright. I found this was not a problem when I was part of a rhythm section, because I was loud enough to hear and correct intonation problems on the fly.

But when playing in a classical style, I found that I frequently could not hear well enough to make corrections...so I had to calibrate my hand and play on faith. This meant putting the EUB in it's case and pulling out Simandl a week or so before classical tour prep started.

I did like using a drone, particularly on the 5th of the key center. However I believe using a drone is contrary to tempering. So it helps in some ways and hurts in others.

YMMV. Take what you like, and flush the rest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jj.833, J R Knots and AGCurry
#8
the_Ryan said:
…it's important to remember that physics (the harmonic series) is a natural phenomenon that spits on the artificial construct that is 12 tone equal temperament and that all intonation is a compromise between the natural resonances of the instrument and the realities of performance.
Click to expand...

Beautifully put, especially the bolded bit. To me, this is the crux of the biscuit.

When playing solo we can tune to the natural resonances of the bass and go for what sounds best given the context…, but when playing with people (particularly with fixed pitch instruments like keyboards and guitars) our default is going to have to be equal temperament.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I’m just a simple jazz player, but…

I’ve been around a ton of professional bassists of all stripes, attended a bunch of ISB conventions and performances, and taught a lot of classical students in secondary jazz lessons. When I hear these sorts of complicated intentions of intonation theory, 99% of the time I wince internally, because the players I hear talking about them don’t seem to have a level of intonation control to be in the ballpark of that mathematical specificity. Put more simply, they play out of tune a lot, but they are talking about razor thin margins of control that represent insane ratios. The players I hear who seem to have this higher level of intonation dialed in don’t seem to think/talk this way much; they seem to be doing it by ear and have just gotten that way by practicing and and listening intently.

When you play with any other person/pitch source, it is always a collaboration and the best we can hope for is to find the sweet spot for any note that sounds “least out of tune” with the other pitch(es). Meaning that if you adjusted slightly up or down, the beating between your pitch and the reference would speed up, so you find the sweet spot where the beating between the sources is slowest.

To me, this is more of a feel thing than an empirically solvable formula, so I prefer to practice with drones to hone this skill.

Interesting thread!
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldNewbie, dhm, Rpod and 7 others
#9
“When you play with any other person/pitch source, it is always a collaboration and the best we can hope for is to find the sweet spot for any note that sounds “least out of tune” with the other pitch(es)”

Agreed! This is a bit discursive, but I “extra” learned this lesson playing cello with folk guitarists who use capos, I could hear the capoed tuning seemed a bit out versus the open tuning. I’d adjust to be in tune and give up the full natural resonance - but that beat being always a bit out of tune when I used a fretted bass guitar. There seems to be a bit of an art to getting a capo adjusted best as possible. Playing along with a capoed guitar in the key of B (a good key for the singer) was a challenge I had to embrace to bring my deadened cello to life. .
 
  • Like
Reactions: jj.833, Wasnex and Chris Fitzgerald
#11
It's very easy to get so hung up on the idea of "correct intonation" that other aspects of technique get shortchanged. I've had students, mainly adults who have played another instrument and may think that bass should be easy, who cannot play a scale without stopping to "fix" a note perceived as out of tune. It's frustrating as a teacher because that may not be what is being worked on at the moment and will be dealt with later. "In tune" is always "compared to what?" and in the context of what you hear and only one aspect of good bass playing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldNewbie, jj.833, Phil Rowan and 2 others
#13
Way above my level, but very interesting!

What I did find is that when you reach a level where you think you're playing in tune, but your teacher thinks otherwise, and you're encouraged to record yourself; the result is greater than the sum of the parts.
What I mean is it seems the subconscious becomes involved and within a very short time your tuning adjusts.
It seems that not only can you hear the tuning issues, but your ear becomes much more sensitised to listening for the correct notes and rapidly the appropriate adjustments seem to magically happen.

Also what I found interesting was in Yoan Goliav's book he states that of all instruments, the bass is the most difficult to play along with another string instrument, especially the cello; as a duet.

Yoan states that the bass generates a lot more harmonics than other instruments and probably resulting from what Wasnex is describing, these interfere negatively with the combined sound unless the tuning is almost perfect. He didn't ascribe this to fourth vs fifth tuning, but the amount and possibly strength of these bass generated harmonics. There is also the issue of the power of the bass being equivalent to, I think he claimed, about 4 cellos. So balance is also an issue.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jj.833, AGCurry and Wasnex
#17
Thanks everyone and especially @the_Ryan for the very informative post that seem to me explaining exactly what I wanted to learn. It's a lot information for me to swallow, but even on the first draft I can immediately find clues that are helpful.
Abandoning the 5th partial (F# on D and B on G) as a valuable lead helped me instantly to get better with my intonation in the highest octave. I didn't come to this realization myself perhaps because the distances between tones so up high are so small that even a slight change of finger pressure results in significant intonation shift. Believing in my ears (and harmonics based on fifths) seems to be much more reliable source of good intonation.
Using the 'mental map of harmonics' as another layer of controlling the intonation reveals much about the instrument to me. It's not so much about precise intonation, because as others pointed out, good intonation is always an optimal compromise with others. But the ability to understand why some tones shine more than others, and that there are means to control it, form a lot of opportunities to explore.
Perhaps it's time for me to delve into the just-tempered tuning issues. I know I vary just and tempered, I can see my finger placement differs on the same tone sometimes and yet I hear the tuning is right. I do it instinctiely though, which often means I have to readjust a tone after I played it. It's usually no problem, but sometimes it is.
Having no Talkbass, I wouldn't know who to ask, so thanks again, and have a nice day!
 
  • Like
Reactions: AGCurry, Paps, Wasnex and 3 others
#19
This thread has been great. I’d like to introduce an element that has to do with the active and conscious application of intonation as an expression tool. You will experience this in the very best string soloists, where they bend the tension between notes by deliberately not playing in tune. It’s very good to practice intonation for its own sake, I’ve done it and we all do. But there’s a lot to be said about the actual application and exploration of this resource in a musical context, which is something that I feel lots of us forget at times.
Because we do need to figure out, in a musical context, how to shape and steer harmonic tension to purposefully express what we want.
The book ‘Cello Mind’ from H J Jensen comes … to mind! :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ketbass
#20
Wasnex said:
My personal feeling is long tones is not the right exercise for working on intonation. The tempo is too slow, so you will loose the pitch center. To me long tones are about improving tone, rather than improving pitch. The exception would be if you have perfect/absolute pitch...which I do not.

Vibrato is also not suitable for intonation practice, because you are purposely varying the pitch...so there is no center.
Click to expand...

Wasnex nails it again!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wasnex

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back