Intonation of a fretless

[Turnaround]

I get your point luciens, but if the fretless is lined it's worth getting it consistent end to end vis a vis the intonation and the lines - roughly. But then as a DB player, I don't get lines on a fretless - they just mess up a nice fingerboard IMO.

 

[luciens]

As others have mentioned…. Setup the bass to your liking and then intonate on the same string closed octave with the edge of a credit card. Intonate appropriately. Voila. Consistent finger positioning across all strings has now been achieved.

I do agree that you're responsible for maintaining intonation as the player, but having a bass that is consistent from string to string is so much easier to play.

But what about multiscale FL basses? Well, I'll tell you - it turns out that multiscale FL basses can be learned to be intonated also. At least according to their owners, of which there probably aren't as many as single-scale players, but the inconsistency across the strings apparently can be overcome on that type of FL bass.

In truth, it's only if it changes suddenly and it's a massive change, that the reasonably good FL player starts noticing something isn't right. If you knock your headstock on something and a string or two goes out of tune. That can be a headscratcher for a little while and might cause you to stop and check your tuning.

But the eensy teeny weeny little bit of movement of the notes from the average amount of adjustment available on the average bridge on the average FL bass? It's just not worth worrying about because practically nobody can detect the difference to begin with.

When I went through the period where this worried me, I would just set the saddles using the TLAR method ("That Looks About Right"). After I learned any possible "offness" of the intonation was utterly undetectable by me anywhere on the neck, I just stopped fiddling with the saddles period. Now I just take them out of the case, setup and tune them and play them as-is.

L

 

[luciens]

I get your point luciens, but if the fretless is lined it's worth getting it consistent end to end vis a vis the intonation and the lines - roughly. But then as a DB player, I don't get lines on a fretless - they just mess up a nice fingerboard IMO.

Perhaps, but then again, the amount of adjustment vs. the amount that the intonation could possibly be off such that it's visible even on a lined bass is really negligible. My Jacos, for example, I've been playing for about a year and a half since I bought em new, and I can't tell if either one of them is on or off or what. I sound equally bad on both and I've never touched the bridges on either one. So even if I did, and got it to where it might look like it's right, it's not going to help me at all. I'm still going to sound as bad as ever.

L

 

[rashrader]

But what about multiscale FL basses? Well, I'll tell you - it turns out that multiscale FL basses can be learned to be intonated also. At least according to their owners, of which there probably aren't as many as single-scale players, but the inconsistency across the strings apparently can be overcome on that type of FL bass.

In truth, it's only if it changes suddenly and it's a massive change, that the reasonably good FL player starts noticing something isn't right. If you knock your headstock on something and a string or two goes out of tune. That can be a headscratcher for a little while and might cause you to stop and check your tuning.

But the eensy teeny weeny little bit of movement of the notes from the average amount of adjustment available on the average bridge on the average FL bass? It's just worth worrying about.

When I went through the period where this worried me, I would just set the saddles using the TLAR method ("That Looks About Right"). After I learned any possible "offness" of the intonation was utterly undetectable by me anywhere on the neck, I just stopped fiddling with the saddles period. Now I just take them out of the case, setup and tune them and play them as-is.

L

I don't think my advice would change if it's a MS Fretless… Once again, intonating the bass consistently across the strings via saddle/scale adjustments has nothing to do with the player intonating the instrument properly while playing. They are entirely separate concerns.

 

[Turnaround]

I don't think my advice would change if it's a MS Fretless… Once again, intonating the bass consistently across the strings via saddle/scale adjustments has nothing to do with the player intonating the instrument properly while playing./QUOTE]
Not really. A double bass, for instance, does not play consistently across the strings. That is done by the player. Why should it be different on the electric fretless? And before anyone says "because you can intonate a fretless bass", I would suggest that it makes no difference since as player you cannot be that consistent crossing strings anyway. Having the strings line up with a real or imaginary straight line across the fingerboard is meaningless.

 

[JRA]

apparently, you can play your own axes to your own satisfaction without intonating. cool beans!

....I can't tell if either one of them is on or off or what. I sound equally bad on both and I've never touched the bridges on either one. So even if I did, and got it to where it might look like it's right, it's not going to help me at all. I'm still going to sound as bad as ever.

...or not!

i'm pretty sure that if you properly intonated your axes, your "bad as ever" sound would have fewer contributing causes.

 

[Killing Floor]

You need to set up a fretless just like any bass. I use a piece of painter tape at the octave and at the 7 for a double check. Painter tape doesn't leave any marks. Don't worry about the dots on the side of the neck as a reference because they are not always right. Find a different luthier.

 

[luciens]

I don't think my advice would change if it's a MS Fretless… Once again, intonating the bass consistently across the strings via saddle/scale adjustments has nothing to do with the player intonating the instrument properly while playing. They are entirely separate concerns.

But if the intonation across strings isn't consistent, and in fact is different by miles, by inherent design of the multi-scale instrument, such a goal isn't even a possibility, is it not?.....

L

 

[luciens]

apparently, you can play your own axes to your own satisfaction without intonating. cool beans!

...or not!

i'm pretty sure that if you properly intonated your axes, your "bad as ever" sound would have fewer contributing causes.

Of course, I did exactly that for many years, even on the occasional lined instrument that came my way here and there. And guess what happened when I stopped doing it?

I'll tell you anyway: I sucked before and still sucked after! And I still suck to this day even on "intonated" FLs vs my non intonated FLs...
Though I do intonate my Jacos significantly better due to the lines, but that's a little OT. So I do suck a little less on the Jaco over against my Tony Franklin. But neither are intonated; I've never touched the bridges since they were new except for the action.

L

 

[JRA]

Of course, I did exactly that for many years, even on the occasional lined instrument that came my way here and there. And guess what happened when I stopped doing it? I'll tell you anyway: I sucked before and still sucked after! And I still suck to this day even on "intonated" FLs vs my non intonated FLs... Though I do intonate my Jacos significantly better due to the lines, but that's a little OT. So I do suck a little less on the Jaco over against my Tony Franklin. But neither are intonated; I've never touched the bridges since they were new except for the action. L

@luciens, i appreciate where you're comin' from, but your take/experience doesn't attend to the OP's predicament, it isn't everyone else's experience, and your advice (re: intonation) goes against 'best practices' for fretless EB playing. being the outlier on the subject of intonation (e.g., it doesn't matter) won't stand up, objectively. but you know that, right?

 

[luciens]

@luciens, i appreciate where you're comin' from, but your take/experience doesn't attend to the OP's predicament, it isn't everyone else's experience, and your advice (re: intonation) goes against 'best practices' for fretless EB playing. being the outlier on the subject of intonation (e.g., it doesn't matter) won't stand up, objectively. but you know that, right?

It's not a matter of opinion, like what kind of bass you like to play or the type of music you like, I'm afraid. I know, I know - every time this comes up nobody believes me, but the issue and the outcome are the same every time. We're simply talking about a level of precision of adjustment that is not needed on the fretless bass.

So, let's go over the objective facts:
- The OP reports that the intonation of the bass had changed over time, despite the apparent fact that the bass was not adjusted in any way in that period.
- The OP apparently has not been bothered by the bass until he began to wonder if his bass needed intonation adjustment.
- Nobody in this thread can agree whether such a thing is needed or not or how it is to be done.
- We all somehow still manage to play our fretless basses with no more or less difficulty on both intonated and non-intonated fretless basses.
- We only become bothered by the intonation of our fretless basses when someone tells us we need to be bothered by it.

Those are the facts, every single time this comes up, and those will always be the facts every time this comes up: it was the player whose intonation had changed over time, not the bass. Why? Because the fretless bass is intonated by the player (the fretted bass is intonated by the bass, not the player).

More objective facts: on the fretless, some guys absolutely insist they can't play their FL's in tune unless they're properly intonated, other guys like myself quit trying to do this decades ago once we discovered it neither hurt nor helped, but they can still play their FL basses in tune with the same level of difficulty. And some guys are somewhere in between. There is no such controversy on the fretted bass: everyone agrees and knows that the fretted bass must be intonated, we can all tell when it's not intonated properly and we know exactly what to do to correct it.

The practical result of this is only that the guys who are worried about it spend X amount of time fiddling with their bridges and a tuner, instead of that X amount of time playing, enjoying and learning to intonate on, their fretless basses. Unlike the fretted bass, where this activity not only makes a difference but is critical for it to be in tune, this is a waste of time on the FL bass because it's an attempt to adjust the wrong item in the equation.

So back to my original claim: the OP's luthier did exactly the right thing and told him exactly the right thing: the player manages the intonation on the fretless bass, not the bass. Fretless basses do not go in and out of adjustment in any way that the player can detect (except for knocking strings out of tune, or the mild, but consistent, changes with going to different string types, etc) or correct with the tiny amount of bridge saddle movements. The player is what goes in and out of adjustment, so that's where the focus needs to be if he is concerned about playing in tune.

Of course, it's the exact opposite on the fretted bass, as we all know...

L

 

[JRA]

i'm with you re: the POV that the OP's 'ears' probably changed over time --- that's about all i can support. the rest is spurious:

Nobody in this thread can agree whether such a thing is needed

so far, i think you're the only one disagreeing. most of the posts are in agreement that fretless intonation is the starting point for 'healthy fretless habits'.

Fretless basses do not go in and out of adjustment in any way that the player can detect

you speak for yourself. fact: you are not able to detect your ax going in/out of adjustment.

i typically appreciate your posts, but i'll take a pass on this one! good luck with your own fretless playing!

 

[luciens]

i'm with you re: the POV that the OP's 'ears' probably changed over time --- that's about all i can support. the rest is spurious:

so far, i think you're the only one disagreeing. most of the posts are in agreement that fretless intonation is the starting point for 'healthy fretless habits'.

I'm not seeing that level of unanimity in favor of your assessment at all. Much less solid agreement on how this intonation problem can even be detected in the first place, and how to actually correct it. One guy recommended something with a credit card, others have just described kind of trying to visually get the "fretted" note in the right spot, etc. Some are saying don't bother at all.

you speak for yourself. fact: you are not able to detect your ax going in/out of adjustment.

That's because it doesn't go in and out of adjustment. No fretless EB's go in and out of intonation adjustment - even for the guys that insist that they do. They couldn't show how the bass is out even if they wanted to. Because the basses don't intonate themselves. Only the players do.

L

 

[JRA]

Much less solid agreement on how this intonation is to actually be done.

a dido.

a discussion of various ways, or best ways, or my way doesn't require unanimity --- it's a discussion, sharing of information. the OP asked for advice/opinion and he's getting it --- including yours, outlier that it is! but i'm sure everyone who intonates their fretless would agree that there are multiple good/great ways to do it, and that the various methods are worth discussing.

No fretless EB's go in and out of intonation adjustment - even for the guys that insist that they do. They don't. Only the players do.

i'm not even sure what you mean by that at this point: i thought i was following your thinking and i thought i had a sense of your perspective...but most of my takeaway from your posts = you don't play fretless very well and you don't think intonating a fretless is beneficial to anyone.

anyway, we're derailing the OP's quest for opinion and info. we've stated our disparate points of view and we've taken enough thread-time --- at least i have! you're on your own!

a quick review:

Ive adjusted my fretless to match the side dots better.

A fretless needs proper intonation

Here's an easy way to "intonate" your fretless that is proven to work (Michael Pedulla method).....

Setting intonation on your fretless will not remove the need to still use your ears to play in tune. But it will make your fingering more consistent across all the strings

Assuming there are some kind of markings on your neck (e.g. side dots) OF COURSE your fretless needs to be intonated.

axes with no markings = just as important, maybe more!

It does depend on finger position, of course, but how can you find the right finger positions if the dots don't properly match the pitches? It's actually more important on fretless!

Of course your fretless needs to be intonated at the saddles!

I do agree that you're responsible for maintaining intonation as the player, but having a bass that is consistent from string to string is so much easier to play.

You need to set up a fretless just like any bass. I use a piece of painter tape at the octave and....

 

[luciens]

View attachment 4440182
a dido.

a discussion of various ways, or best ways, or my way doesn't require unanimity --- it's a discussion, sharing of information. the OP asked for advice/opinion and he's getting it --- including yours, outlier that it is! but i'm sure everyone who intonates their fretless would agree that there are multiple good/great ways to do it, and that the various methods are worth discussing.

Exactly my point - there shouldn't be "multiple good/great ways" to intonate your fretless bass if it had a truly measurable, reproducible effect.

Here, think about it like this: are there multiple good/great ways to intonate your fretted bass? Well, ok, you know the answer, but I'll just state the answer anyway: no, there is only a very small, easily identifiable set of ways to intonate your fretted bass.

More to the point, can your prove (to only yourself if you like) that your fretless bass is "out of intonation"? How would you prove it? Compare that to your fretted bass; can you prove your fretted bass is out of intonation? You know this answer too: yes, and it's very easily done for any audience you might choose to demonstrate it to.

In fact, try it yourself: see if you can demonstrate to yourself that your FL bass is intonated properly, or not intonated properly. Is it the bass that's somehow out of tune when it's out, and in tune when it's in? Or is it just you happening to intonate the note properly or improperly?

i'm not even sure what you mean by that at this point: i thought i was following your thinking and i thought i had a sense of your perspective...but most of my takeaway from your posts = you don't play fretless very well and you don't think intonating a fretless is beneficial to anyone.

It is beneficial for you? If so, can you prove it and how would you do so? Again, no need to answer out loud. Just think about it and try it. The difficulty should be pretty easy to spot with a little observation and thinking about it.

L

 

[TomB]

I've noticed that older strings do change intonation; not sure why. I'd consider new strings before I messed with the saddles.

Then I'd mess with the saddles .

 

[luciens]

I've noticed that older strings do change intonation; not sure why. I'd consider new strings before I messed with the saddles.

Then I'd mess with the saddles .

Speaking of that, flatwounds intonate in a slightly different position than roundwounds do too, if you've noticed this. Rounds tend to intonate very slightly flat compared to flats, because the contact surface isn't smooth on the round wounds. But there's a very good chance that any given FL player can adapt with no detrimental effects to the difference without any adjustments to the bass. In fact, there are probably as many who never even noticed this as there are who have noticed it, but just kept playing....

L

 

[SLO Surfer]

The part that concerns me most is that this "tech" said he'll do the intonation by first moving the saddles all the way back then checking it from there.

I think you need to first; learn to set neck relief, saddle height, and string length (VERY easy), and second; find a new tech for your repair needs.

 

[SteveCS]

Ok, TB, I wonder what you will have to say.

Correct setup is essential, IME. Secure, accurate and repeatable intonation is a product of well-grooved repeatable positional posture - intimate experience of the distances between intervals in any given position and all reasonable combinations of fingers. Having the distances between intervals the same for all strings makes a huge difference in learning good intonation and, more importantly, having total trust in your hands to deliver perfect intonation. By which I mean +/- 3 or 4 cents.

+++++++++++++

Contrary to popular belief, FL's, even lined ones, don't need to be intonated.

No, they don't.
No, they don't.
No, they don't.

Here's why: even those who claim the basses do need it, can't tell when a fretless bass is "out of intonation" to begin with.

It's not a matter of opinion, like what kind of bass you like to play or the type of music you like, I'm afraid. I know, I know - every time this comes up nobody believes me, but the issue and the outcome are the same every time. We're simply talking about a level of precision of adjustment that is not needed on the fretless bass.

I'm not seeing that level of unanimity in favor of your assessment at all. Much less solid agreement on how this intonation problem can even be detected in the first place, and how to actually correct it.

It depends on how sensitive you are to pitch, how bothered you are by bad intonation and on your willingness to recognise and address related flaws and problems. For me, perfect intonation is a primary objective, second only to playing the right notes in the right order and at the right time. We are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum in that regard. As my end of the spectrum, I trust my ear and posture so much that I can (and have) use them to tell me if an instrument is even marginally out of tune and if the intonation settings are even marginally off.

I find your POV quite bemusing, particularly as, by your own admission you aren't really comfortable with the fretless bass. Unfortunately the passion with which you defend the indefensible creates some superficial kerb-appeal to the less experienced players. So, to all the fledgling fretless players reading this: don't believe a word of it. Instead, get a good setup as discussed earlier by @staccatogrowl, learn and practice good posture, and invest plenty of time training your ear.

 

[luciens]

It depends on how sensitive you are to pitch, how bothered you are by bad intonation and on your willingness to recognise and address related flaws and problems. For me, perfect intonation is a primary objective, second only to playing the right notes in the right order and at the right time. We are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum in that regard. As my end of the spectrum, I trust my ear and posture so much that I can (and have) use them to tell me if an instrument is even marginally out of tune and if the intonation settings are even marginally off.

I'd only issue the same challenge to you, to actually prove that your FL bass is or isn't properly intonated. Crucially, if a note is on or off desired pitch, how would you distinguish whether the fault is with the bass or with the player?

L