Irreversible climate damage is imminent

[bolophonic]

You DO realize when any large company with an essential product like oil is taxed more the cost is just passed along to you in higher prices, right? Or has that concept not entered your mind?

As to being taxed to 'change' the energy mix, I doubt that's what happens. History tells is the money disappears into a black hole if waste like Solyndra et sl.

I can see that you are perfectly happy with the status quo, so I guess you can enjoy the fact that we will forever pay to subsidize polluters. Still not sure why that seems to be such a source of pride for some people, but whatever...

 

[BawanaRik]

I can see that you are perfectly happy with the status quo, so I guess you can enjoy the fact that we will forever pay to subsidize polluters. Still not sure why that seems to be such a source of pride for some people, but whatever...

End user of petroleum products are polluters. People pollute. It's what we do.

The subsidies in place are there because people think that gas is like water. It should be limitless and available for free or close to it.

Now the funny part is that gas is like water in that both as scarce resources. Water may be a bit less scarce that petrol products. But someday soon people will come face to face with the fact that water isn't "free".

Someday you will worship me for attempting to raise gasoline to 10 bucks a gallon.

That day isn't today. But I am patient.

 

[drumsnbass]

I can see that you are perfectly happy with the status quo, so I guess you can enjoy tthe fact that we will forever pay to subsidize polluters. Still not sure why that seems to be such a source of pride for some people, but whatever...

Sorry, twisting the facts is no way to debate.

Personally I would be more than happy to be taxed on 'carbon' if, and given our governments record that's a might big if, all that money actually went to reducing carbon emissions without being swallowed whole by DC crony capitalism. However the record shows that most certainly will not happen.

Incidentally, gas frakking has put a huge dent in coal use here in the US and this reduced carbon emissions. No one had to pick our pockets for that to happen. Market economics and some legislation led the way.

As a strong believer in 'peak cheap oil' I am most certainly all for conservation of that precious resource. As a farmer I am well aware I cannot run a tractor for any length of time on sunshine, and using my crop to make biodiesel to grow and harvest more crop would end up revenue negative, at least at my scale.

I am certainly not in favor of pollution either and prefer breathing clean air over what I breathed as a kid in the 60's in the city.

What I am not in favor of is knee-jerk, propaganda-driven 'solutions' that don't really solve anything but cost me more anyway.

One salient issue no one ever seems to address in this country is localized energy mix, or using what works best where it works best. For the NW hydro works best for electric, while for the SE nuclear has been the best option, etc. believing national borders define both the problem and the solution is ridiculous.

As I keep saying, if the pols wanted to 'fix' the problem they could do it with a pen, but there is no money in such a 'solution' so it remains an 'issue' until such time as it is a 'crisis' and they believe the governed will gladly allow their pockets to be picked. Then we will be told it is fixed. Just like 'No Child Left Behind' or the 'War on Poverty' etc etc... Of course nothing will be fixed but we'll be told it's being worked on as the well connected in DC vacuum up the cash.

 

[bolophonic]

Sorry, twisting the facts is no way to debate.

Personally I would be more than happy to be taxed on 'carbon' if, and given our governments record that's a might big if, all that money actually went to reducing carbon emissions without being swallowed whole by DC crony capitalism. However the record shows that most certainly will not happen.

Incidentally, gas frakking has put a huge dent in coal use here in the US and this reduced carbon emissions. No one had to pick our pockets for that to happen. Market economics and some legislation led the way.

As a strong believer in 'peak cheap oil' I am most certainly all for conservation of that precious resource. As a farmer I am well aware I cannot run a tractor for any length of time on sunshine, and using my crop to make biodiesel to grow and harvest more crop would end up revenue negative, at least at my scale.

I am certainly not in favor of pollution either and prefer breathing clean air over what I breathed as a kid in the 60's in the city.

What I am not in favor of is knee-jerk, propaganda-driven 'solutions' that don't really solve anything but cost me more anyway.

One salient issue no one ever seems to address in this country is localized energy mix, or using what works best where it works best. For the NW hydro works best for electric, while for the SE nuclear has been the best option, etc. believing national borders define both the problem and the solution is ridiculous.

As I keep saying, if the pols wanted to 'fix' the problem they could do it with a pen, but there is no money in such a 'solution' so it remains an 'issue' until such time as it is a 'crisis' and they believe the governed will gladly allow their pockets to be picked. Then we will be told it is fixed. Just like 'No Child Left Behind' or the 'War on Poverty' etc etc... Of course nothing will be fixed but we'll be told it's being worked on as the well connected in DC vacuum up the cash.

I seem to have somehow lumped you in with the Derpers. My apologies.

 

[duff beer]

I personally installed a 1.5kw solar array on my roof and now have a net reduction in my bill of around 25%. Which is the entire point. Less power use. Less co2. Costs less. Nobody lost their job. Nobody's liberties were infringed. And the economy didn't die a horrible death. So excuse me if I don't buy into this whole scare thing.

And you can't put a price on green smugness...

How much taxpayer money subsidized your solar panels? Where did the materials to build them come from? What happens to the by-products from manufacturing? Were the materials needed harvested in "green" manner? What is the CO2 footprint of a solar panel factory?

 

[drumsnbass]

End user of petroleum products are polluters. People pollute. It's what we do.

The subsidies in place are there because people think that gas is like water. It should be limitless and available for free or close to it.

Now the funny part is that gas is like water in that both as scarce resources. Water may be a bit less scarce that petrol products. But someday soon people will come face to face with the fact that water isn't "free".

Someday you will worship me for attempting to raise gasoline to 10 bucks a gallon.

That day isn't today. But I am patient.

Nicole Foss at THe Automatic Earth just did a nice roll up of water. You would enjoy it.

 

[drumsnbass]

I seem to have somehow lumped you in with the Derpers. My apologies.

One cannot win an argument by insulting those they disagree with...

 

[BawanaRik]

Nicole Foss at THe Automatic Earth just did a nice roll up of water. You would enjoy it.

I'm old. It's possible that whoever spins the wheels has chosen to allow me to live at what may be the Belle Epoque of humanity's run on the planet.

I've had access to technology, water, and what may someday be considered an Arcadian environment.

Life is good. If people work together it can good good for a long time. If not.

 

[drumsnbass]

I'm old. It's possible that whoever spins the wheels has chosen to allow me to live at what may be the Belle Epoque of humanity's run on the planet.

I've had access to technology, water, and what may someday be considered an Arcadian environment.

Life is good. If people work together it can good good for a long time. If not.

I became a farmer for the day it will not be so good. It could be my kids, or their kids, growing cows where the soy currently grows. At least they won't starve.

I generally agree with you, we are living in some night special times.

 

[will33]

You all do realize that there really is no such thing as a corporate tax or business tax don't you? It's as rediculous as thinking renters don't pay property taxes. Those are all just costs of doing business that get figured into the price and passed along to the end user.

You can't tax your way out of any problem. You can only tax your way into problems, that's all.

 

[will33]

End user of petroleum products are polluters. People pollute. It's what we do.

The subsidies in place are there because people think that gas is like water. It should be limitless and available for free or close to it.

Now the funny part is that gas is like water in that both as scarce resources. Water may be a bit less scarce that petrol products. But someday soon people will come face to face with the fact that water isn't "free".

Someday you will worship me for attempting to raise gasoline to 10 bucks a gallon.

That day isn't today. But I am patient.

Stop subsidizing big oil I agree with. So even if a gallon of gas costs $5 instead of $3.40, you're still going to artificially raise it to $10.

Question: who gets the other $5 and why?

 

[ZenG]

If you buy into a "revenue neutral" tax........they've got you by the short ones.....


"revenue neutral" is an oxymoron.......

 

[blue4]

I'm not sure about the comparable environmental impact of a Prius v an Elantra. Those 500 lb batteries are going to impacting the environment in a big when they stop working.

I think bio diesel has more of a possible future. It is renewable in an environmentally friendly fashion. And batteries aren't.

But I think people like to live large. The appeal of getting where one is going in a bio diesel Yaris getting 100 easily renewable MPG is out weighed by driving a massive heavy Prius.

The Prius vs Elantra comparison was for dramatic effect, designed to show that one's life isn't going to descend into a third world life simply from going green. Not as a end all solution.

 

[ZenG]

Did I not read where replacement batteries for electric cars run in the 5000 dollar range?

Duracell...are you listening?

I want a wind-up car with a big key sticking out of the back.......much less expensive..........and it will come with emergency pedals.....

 

[blue4]

Sorry, twisting the facts is no way to debate.

Personally I would be more than happy to be taxed on 'carbon' if, and given our governments record that's a might big if, all that money actually went to reducing carbon emissions without being swallowed whole by DC crony capitalism. However the record shows that most certainly will not happen.

Incidentally, gas frakking has put a huge dent in coal use here in the US and this reduced carbon emissions. No one had to pick our pockets for that to happen. Market economics and some legislation led the way.

As a strong believer in 'peak cheap oil' I am most certainly all for conservation of that precious resource. As a farmer I am well aware I cannot run a tractor for any length of time on sunshine, and using my crop to make biodiesel to grow and harvest more crop would end up revenue negative, at least at my scale.

I am certainly not in favor of pollution either and prefer breathing clean air over what I breathed as a kid in the 60's in the city.

What I am not in favor of is knee-jerk, propaganda-driven 'solutions' that don't really solve anything but cost me more anyway.

One salient issue no one ever seems to address in this country is localized energy mix, or using what works best where it works best. For the NW hydro works best for electric, while for the SE nuclear has been the best option, etc. believing national borders define both the problem and the solution is ridiculous.

As I keep saying, if the pols wanted to 'fix' the problem they could do it with a pen, but there is no money in such a 'solution' so it remains an 'issue' until such time as it is a 'crisis' and they believe the governed will gladly allow their pockets to be picked. Then we will be told it is fixed. Just like 'No Child Left Behind' or the 'War on Poverty' etc etc... Of course nothing will be fixed but we'll be told it's being worked on as the well connected in DC vacuum up the cash.

If the air today is better than in the 60's, than at least one knee jerk solution that cost money worked. It's far cleaner now than when I was a kid. As for American solutions, this is the reality we face. One side tends to overtax and overreact, one side simply wants to fiddle while Rome burns. Between those two realities, IMO I'd rather overreact instead of doing nothing.

 

[will33]

My 21 year-old Corolla wagon gets 34mpg.

It doesn't have any 500lb., $5000 batteries in it that were produced using a ton of fossil fuels and chemicals to ruin whatever environment they're dumped in after they wear out. I'm not consuming even more raw material buying a new car every few years.

I got it for $850, and it hauls all my band gear.

I'm "green".

 

[will33]

If the air today is better than in the 60's, than at least one knee jerk solution that cost money worked. It's far cleaner now than when I was a kid. As for American solutions, this is the reality we face. One side tends to overtax and overreact, one side simply wants to fiddle while Rome burns. Between those two realities, IMO I'd rather overreact instead of doing nothing.

I'd rather use our intelligence to come up with a third option that actually makes sense.

 

[ZenG]

I am not happy when a government offers a solution to a problem via taxing it.

Governments are not in the business of solving problems.......they are in the business of acquiring money for the government.

Problem solving and solutions to problems are by and large done by independent people and thinkers .

Most governments and politicians use the ideology of "Find a parade and get in front of it".

There have been many inventive remedies to many problems that have been killed off by governments and the corporations that they are in bed with.

Basic taxes like ones used for highway maintenance etc. are necessary of course........but you don't need a panel of scientists to tell you there's a pothole in the road.

 

[drumsnbass]

I am not happy when a government offers a solution to a problem via taxing it.

Governments are not in the business of solving problems.......they are in the business of acquiring money for the government.

Problem solving and solutions to problems are by and large done by independent people and thinkers .

Most governments and politicians use the ideology of "Find a parade and get in front of it".

There have been many inventive remedies to many problems that have been killed off by governments and the corporations that they are in bed with.

Basic taxes like ones used for highway maintenance etc. are necessary of course........but you don't need a panel of scientists to tell you there's a pothole in the road.

Typically when government gets in the business of picking winners and losers the well-connected win, and the electorate loses...

 

[FilterFunk]

I am not happy when a government offers a solution to a problem via taxing it.

Governments are not in the business of solving problems.......they are in the business of acquiring money for the government.

Problem solving and solutions to problems are by and large done by independent people and thinkers .

Most governments and politicians use the ideology of "Find a parade and get in front of it".

There have been many inventive remedies to many problems that have been killed off by governments and the corporations that they are in bed with.

Basic taxes like ones used for highway maintenance etc. are necessary of course........but you don't need a panel of scientists to tell you there's a pothole in the road.

Government excess = bad. No doubt.

But if you're suggesting privatization...governments answer at least somewhat to the people. I don't like the idea of corporations being in charge of anything. It seems that "independent people and thinkers" don't have enough power to affect significant change until they align themselves with and/or become major corporations.

I dig what you're saying...I just don't know how feasible it is.