Is adhering to the kick drum pattern admired?

[bolophonic]

So, I love all the standard bassists everyone admires here on talkbass. You know-John Paul Jones, James Jamerson, etc. However, whenever I hear their music, the one thing that catches me, (and really, any music) apart from their musicality, is the punch-even through headphones-of when the kick and bass match up. It really is something. I also like, when the bassist mimics the pattern of the drums, playing low notes for the kick and maybe a high note for the snare, whilst matching the cymbal sustain. However, quite a few people say that this rigid pocket is often a signature of a novice bassist, but I think it really confirms the purpose of the bass as a bridge between the drums and guitars (rhythm and harmony). It also keeps your playing simplistic. However, I don’t want to be recognised as boring. I just feel it lets the music breath a lot more. Do you think I’m okay having this aspiration or not?

We can talk about the pocket all we want, but the only thing that ultimately matters is how it sounds.

Because most of us aren't playing in marching bands

Confession: I played the bass drum in marching band.

 

[CapnSev]

To me, bass is the instrument that bridges the gap between percussion and melody/tones/lettered note instruments. Bass can transition to one or the other, or be both. On top of that, you set the chord tones for everyone else. What a cool instrument.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Frankie Goes To Hollywood had several songs where the drum/bass interaction was very catchy. Mostly fake, but very catchy.

Let's listen.
Now, how much the bass player is following that bass drum/kick drum?

 

[Sid s]

Let's listen.
Now, how much the bass player is following that bass drum/kick drum?

Relax is closer to what I was thinking about. But they had several songs with interesting bass lines.

 

[sing-modulator]

i think its nice when the bass and drums line up at mey moments, but when im rehearsing my band and the drummer is missing the hits with the bass, its very obvious and not-groovin

 

[jamro217]

The bass is a such a powerful instrument in a band context. How you use it defines the rhythm section. If you play root five quarter notes all night long and that's the musical statement you wish to make, then you are a success. If you think the bass should be playing a game of cat and mouse with the melody and only use the kick as a reference point, that's fine, too. How you approach the music is just as important as your technique and gear IMHO. The main thing is to do what sounds right. What that is and how you execute it changes from song to song.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

To me the drum is enhancing the rythm by making more than obvious. Locking together is a team sport that the whole band have to do.

If the rythm of the guitar never in synch with the bass ... of course nothing will synch with the drum.

And I must say ... rythm guitar or just guitar is kinda more important than us. They do play chords, chords that determine the chord progression and with a rythm that guess what ... lock with the drum ... we bass player enhance those chords and the drum just enhance whole note, half note, quarter, 8th and 16th of the rythm given by the guitar and bass.

I know my way of seeing thing isn't very popular outside of classical music.

 

[Blissful_Lad]

100% style dependent.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that most music doesn't have a kick drum.

 

[maplenecked]

To me the drum is enhancing the rythm by making more than obvious. Locking together is a team sport that the whole band have to do.

If the rythm of the guitar never in synch with the bass ... of course nothing will synch with the drum.

And I must say ... rythm guitar or just guitar is kinda more important than us. They do play chords, chords that determine the chord progression and with a rythm that guess what ... lock with the drum ... we bass player enhance those chords and the drum just enhance whole note, half note, quarter, 8th and 16th of the rythm given by the guitar and bass.

I know my way of seeing thing isn't very popular outside of classical music.

Loving the role of rhythm guitar is what made me want to try bass, good points about the importance of the role!

 

[retslock]

There’s no hard and fast rule - I want to be that link between the rhythm and harmony too and let the melody shine. When the bass and kick drum lock into a groove it gets me smiling. There’s nothing quite like it. It’s more than a sound, it’s a feeling too.
Having said that, it’s not required for the bass to do everything that the kick drum does and I’ve had some great times with drummers when you create something together that’s more than the sum of it’s parts. In other words your parts differ but together they create a groove that’s irresistable.
Some players are soloists and innovators so if that’s your thing then you may want to disregard the above but if you want to get booty on the dance floor, then get in there with the kick drum and groove on.

 

[retslock]

I think the reason people put down playing exactly to the kick and snare figures is that there are so many other options. There is nothing wrong with sticking tight to the drum patterns but you are not obligated to do so. It can also vary stylistically how closely your parts mirror drum parts. John Paul Jones was great at understanding the individual characteristics of a tune and playing accordingly. When the vocal or other factors need to be focused on he is parred down and solid. Where there is room for the bass to shine he played sweet, melodic lines. There needs to be a rhythmic relationship between the drums and bass, especially in a rock setting. How close that relationship is depends on the specific song and the tastes of the players.

Yep I agree. You don’t have to mirror the kick drum but some of what you do is most likely going to coincide with it and if you hit those points in sync it will have a big impact.

 

[Groove Doctor]

There’s no hard and fast rule - I want to be that link between the rhythm and harmony too and let the melody shine. When the bass and kick drum lock into a groove it gets me smiling. There’s nothing quite like it. It’s more than a sound, it’s a feeling too.

Having said that, it’s not required for the bass to do everything that the kick drum does and I’ve had some great times with drummers when you create something together that’s more than the sum of it’s parts. In other words your parts differ but together they create a groove that’s irresistable.

Like this....?

Bass line is almost all syncopated beats. Can be tricky to nail it with a live band. (Mega hit in Aus & UK).

 

[retslock]

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread as I’ve often found myself confused as to what “the pocket” is an isn’t. What about songs like “With a Little Help From My Friends” or “What is And What Should Never Be”?....are Paul and John Paul really paying attention to the drum part or are the rules different when you’re laying your part down in the studio (in other words, is “the pocket” more of a requirement when playing live)?

If it was simple everyone would be doing it. The thing that makes great players stand out is the quality of their choices - musical choices that create something above the ordinary.
There is also the fact that the most important rule in music is: know the rules and break them if the music requires it.

 

[IamGroot]

Playing with the kick is the first bass lesson.

Learn to play with the kick, before you learn how not to.

 

[sing-modulator]

playing stuff that repeats is really easy but really limiting.. i think its better to play with the intent of mutual listening. pocket comes from that, i think, more so than playing along to a predictable beat.

 

[2BitHack]

Learn to play with the kick, before you learn how not to.

And then you too shall learn the sound of 1 hand clapping

 

[bobyoung53]

I always play with the kick, not saying I only play exclusively with it, I will add more notes but I try to always accent the kick, makes the band sound more punchy. I love loud drummers who really punch the kick, makes me play better.

 

[Gaolee]

Playing drums, I'll play off the bass or with the bass, depending. Same with playing bass. You don't have to do the same thing to lock.

 

[retslock]

Phil Lesh…often omits the one...

Reggae turns everything upside down. Kick drum on 2 & 4??? Whoa!

 

[Eric Swaim]

Depends on how good the drummer is, if he's bad you both might get fired.