Is plugging a head into a power conditioner bad?

[bongomania]

If I get the majority of this nonsense right, it's perfectly OK to plug your head into a $5.98 power strip from XYZ store, but somehow it's bad to plug it into a rack mounted power strip... Sometimes these geniuses amaze me...

Generally it's best not to insult the intelligence of people who say things you don't understand.

The deal is that the $5.98 power strip does not have enough parts or processes inside to interfere with your amp's current draw. The typical "fancy" rackmount conditioner does have an array of parts and processes that can bottleneck your current draw, and in addition they do not provide most of the benefits that their advertisements would lead you to believe.

There may be exceptions to both of those descriptions, and there certainly are many instances where the benefits can outweigh the costs, but otherwise I hope this condensed version of the "cheap strip vs. rack conditioner" discussion is more understandable.

 

[Calaverasgrande]

If it can't be measured, there is truly no way you can hear it. The ear may be impressive, but it is certainly not capable of discerning what even mediocre sensing equipment can.

I didnt say the ear, I mentioned a set of ears, connected to a brain. Not to infer intelligence but psycho-acoustics.
There are all kinds of things you can hear but not measure with any piece of gear. How do you measure rocking? How do you quantify totally going off? When someone plays a total clunker of a note, everyone (except the tone deaf) knows it. how can you measure that? (and there are in key/in tune clunkers!)

As for "resolving chaos," place a good quality stereo microphone at listening position with a room. You will capture the mix in a reasonably close way to what would be heard.

The ear/brain can interpret the sound in the room and will eliminate early reflections or rather will add them to the first impulse from which they derive. On the recording you wont decode the early reflections the same way so you will hear the early reflections as hash/chatter and flutter echo. Bane of home studio recordings.

Your implication about the sensitivity of the human ear is baseless and easily disproven. There are innumerable systems that are orders of magnitude more sensitive than the human ear, and just as many with equally superior processing to the human brain with regard to those signals. I agree, it is impressive that we can discern specific sounds (language) within a blend of sounds, but that doesn't prove anything regarding sensitivity or fidelity.

Okay, go ahead and design a bass guitar using nothing but measurements and your great test equipment. Good luthiers know how to use their god given talents, and ears.

There have been plenty of objectively stated facts in this thread; no need for the provocative quotations. The people stating these facts are engineers, scientists, or otherwise practically experienced with audio. This isn't a battle between "objectivity" and "subjectivity". That's a futile battle. This is a battle between people who have stated and clearly understand the facts, and those who deny those facts but don't possess the understanding or knowledge to argue their side. Invariably these parameters result in a frustrating discussion. Those who don't know refuse to learn. Facts are not opinions.

Well, I have played bass guitar and other musical instruments for 36 years. I have written hundreds of songs, been in dozens of bands, recorded hundreds of songs for other people, done sound for thousands of bands at thousands of shows. Used to run a PA company (QSC amps were great then as now!) so I am not without some experience.
Besides, this is a bass guitarist forum last I checked, not a quantum physicist forum.

Make your case in a comprehensive, respectful way, and you might get a little bit more rewarding discussion in return. Or you could keep stirring the pot in your passive-aggressive way, as above, to keep the "spurious" opinions coming.

I am known for one thing among my friends and associates. I dont take kindly to being told how to behave. How about you mind your manners son?
I will continue to be the defender of the faith in the ineffable.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

There are all kinds of things you can hear but not measure with any piece of gear. How do you measure rocking? How do you quantify totally going off?

You're confusing aesthetic judgement, which requires intelligence, with measuring.

When someone plays a total clunker of a note, everyone (except the tone deaf) knows it. how can you measure that? (and there are in key/in tune clunkers!)

Well that's not too difficult to measure.

The ear/brain can interpret the sound in the room and will eliminate early reflections or rather will add them to the first impulse from which they derive. On the recording you wont decode the early reflections the same way so you will hear the early reflections as hash/chatter and flutter echo. Bane of home studio recordings.

That can be measured, both in real time and on a recording.

Okay, go ahead and design a bass guitar using nothing but measurements and your great test equipment. Good luthiers know how to use their god given talents, and ears.

Even better, try designing one without measurements. Good luthiers know what to measure.

 

[JimmyM]

I will continue to be the defender of the faith in the ineffable.

i have way more faith in the effable.

Invalid Link Removed

effable.

ineffable.

and yes, this can be measured. easily.

 

[Growly Lytes]

EWH. First one is to kill for.The second is to cry for !!

 

[bongomania]

i have way more faith in the effable.

Well played, sir!

 

[ric stave]

I have a serious question regarding the original topic, started oh some 14 pages ago...

I bought and use a Furman AR1215 Voltage regulator for my bass rack gear (wireless, ADA MB-1 preamp, Boss VF-1 FX, Korg rack tuner) and also have my Bergantino IP112 plugged in to the same regulator. Would the better/correct way to hook this up be to NOT plug the IP into the regulator, but plug both the regulator and the IP amp into a splitter on an extension and then directly into the outlet? Does having a larger current drawing device plugged into the same source that a voltage regulator is plugged into cause any problems?

I bought the regulator because I was having problems with my ADA not liking low voltage at some outside lawn fete type gigs we were playing the past couple years - when voltage dipped because of lousy power and distance and draw, my bass amp would completely fart out - at first 1 thought it was the IP, but even just going direct from the ADA it happened, so I was able to track it down to the preamp. Since I've been using the VR I haven't had this problem.

The reason I ask is because years ago I bought a different VR (just for my rack gear) and it was unusable on the same circuit that the power amps and PA were plugged into. Not sure why - maybe someone knows?

Thanks
~ric

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Does having a larger current drawing device plugged into the same source that a voltage regulator is plugged into cause any problems?

It does.

The reason I ask is because years ago I bought a different VR (just for my rack gear) and it was unusable on the same circuit that the power amps and PA were plugged into. Not sure why - maybe someone knows?

For the same reason you shouldn't run your amp off the VR: current. When the VR delivers higher voltage it can only do so at the expense of current. That can leave your amp current starved, and where output is concerned amps are far more cranky when current starved than when voltage starved.
The VR also can only compensate for a voltage drop if it has sufficient current at its input, and if you've got a bunch of PA amps sucking the current away there's just not enough to go around. Solution: don't use the same outlet as the PA amps.

 

[ric stave]

Thanks Bill, that's kinda what I thought. Ideally, it'd be nice to have sufficient power everywhere, or multiple sources, but realistically for some of the events I end up playing it just doesn't work out that way.

I had a gig at an outdoor town event where we advanced our minimum requirements - 3 solid 20 amp circuits. When I arrived, the 'band tent' was in the middle of a parking lot with 3 long orange extension cords running to it. I traced them back, each one about 100', and 2 were plugged into the same outlet, an outlet sticking up from the ground by a walking path through a garden - the 3rd was plugged into the next outlet down - turns out on the same circuit. My voltage at the tent read about 106, idle. Turn on Subwoofer amp, 104. I let things sit, on, but no signal through it - after about 10 min the breaker on the circuit popped. The event people ran us 2 more lines from the other tents (great, now on with food warmers and crockpots... ) We got through the show by taking out the sub, me running the bass without going through the PA. Sucked, but we got paid.

 

[okcrum]

I have a serious question regarding the original topic, started oh some 14 pages ago...

I bought and use a Furman AR1215 Voltage regulator for my bass rack gear (wireless, ADA MB-1 preamp, Boss VF-1 FX, Korg rack tuner) and also have my Bergantino IP112 plugged in to the same regulator. Would the better/correct way to hook this up be to NOT plug the IP into the regulator, but plug both the regulator and the IP amp into a splitter on an extension and then directly into the outlet? Does having a larger current drawing device plugged into the same source that a voltage regulator is plugged into cause any problems?

Use the VR on your moderate, constant loads (everything but the amp) and let the amp fend for itself. The VR will be degraded by the varying amp load, and the amp will be degraded by the VR's output impedance.

One man's solid 20 amp circuit is another man's frayed extension cord.

 

[jnewmark]

Thanks Bill, that's kinda what I thought. Ideally, it'd be nice to have sufficient power everywhere, or multiple sources, but realistically for some of the events I end up playing it just doesn't work out that way.

I had a gig at an outdoor town event where we advanced our minimum requirements - 3 solid 20 amp circuits. When I arrived, the 'band tent' was in the middle of a parking lot with 3 long orange extension cords running to it. I traced them back, each one about 100', and 2 were plugged into the same outlet, an outlet sticking up from the ground by a walking path through a garden - the 3rd was plugged into the next outlet down - turns out on the same circuit. My voltage at the tent read about 106, idle. Turn on Subwoofer amp, 104. I let things sit, on, but no signal through it - after about 10 min the breaker on the circuit popped. The event people ran us 2 more lines from the other tents (great, now on with food warmers and crockpots... ) We got through the show by taking out the sub, me running the bass without going through the PA. Sucked, but we got paid.

Welcome to the Outdoor Party Gig world ! I went through this for years until we finally starting demanding separate circuits in our contracts. At one outdoor college gig, we even had separate generators! But, ususally, the norm is several 100 ft extensions cords , snaked to the nearest bulding's closest outlet box. Sucks, but there you have it.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

So 14 pages tell me that my Furmann is essentially a glorified power strip (which I'm fine with) and since it's safe to plug into a power strip, then it's safe to plug my 1000W power amp into it. Also CD's sound as good as vinyl and you can get a rosewood arm for a turntable. Am I correct, or do I need to figure out how to go solar?

 

[bongomania]

Read post 261 at the top of this page.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Ric - Good question

Bill - Great answer

I think it pretty much sums up this thread.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Read post 261 at the top of this page.

I'm not as concerned about the definition as much as the final verdict. Yes it's ok to plug my power amp into it (I run a pre/power set up and have been doing it for years with no problems) or no I'm doing damage or not realizing the full potential of my power amp? Or is it not a simple yes or no answer?

 

[jnewmark]

Everytime this question about power amps comes up on the QSC forum, the answer is usually, plug the power amp directly into the wall outlet for the best results. Bob Lee can correct me if I am wrong, but I think that's the bottom line.

 

[bongomania]

I'm not as concerned about the definition as much as the final verdict. Yes it's ok to plug my power amp into it (I run a pre/power set up and have been doing it for years with no problems) or no I'm doing damage or not realizing the full potential of my power amp? Or is it not a simple yes or no answer?

Definitely not a simple yes or no answer. It's very unlikely that you did any damage, but there is a good chance (unknowable without careful testing) that your amp wasn't getting all the juice it needed for best operation.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Thanks Bill, that's kinda what I thought. Ideally, it'd be nice to have sufficient power everywhere, or multiple sources, but realistically for some of the events I end up playing it just doesn't work out that way.

I had a gig at an outdoor town event where we advanced our minimum requirements - 3 solid 20 amp circuits. When I arrived, the 'band tent' was in the middle of a parking lot with 3 long orange extension cords running to it. I traced them back, each one about 100', and 2 were plugged into the same outlet, an outlet sticking up from the ground by a walking path through a garden - the 3rd was plugged into the next outlet down - turns out on the same circuit. My voltage at the tent read about 106, idle. Turn on Subwoofer amp, 104. I let things sit, on, but no signal through it - after about 10 min the breaker on the circuit popped. The event people ran us 2 more lines from the other tents (great, now on with food warmers and crockpots... ) We got through the show by taking out the sub, me running the bass without going through the PA. Sucked, but we got paid.

The worst part is the distance to the service entrance ground; you're lucky not to get electrocuted in those circumstances. You hate to turn around and drive home, but no gig's worth dying for.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Definitely not a simple yes or no answer. It's very unlikely that you did any damage, but there is a good chance (unknowable without careful testing) that your amp wasn't getting all the juice it needed for best operation.

Thanks for answering. I actually used to plug in my power amp directly to the wall and everything else to a power strip, but I simplified this process by getting a power conditioner. I didn't notice any difference in the sound of my amp though. So I'm going to operate business as usual assuming there's no difference. Thanks again bongo.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

I'd say 99% of the time plugging the amp into a power "conditioner" will bring no ill effects (as well as no benefit) except on your wallet.

The exception is that if you have a really high-power amp drawing lots of current, there could be enough voltage drop caused by the extra circuitry in series with the amp that it cuts significantly into the amp's available headroom. In some cases where the AC mains voltage is already low, additional voltage sag could cause an amp or other gear to shut down.